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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBunny View Post
    C. I chose "nouveau" purposefully, because of its connotations of "trendiness." These types of knives seemed to be very new. Are these techniques and designs superior, or merely a fad? I am actually curious. I would tend to the former, rather than the latter. It seems that the germanic profiles and rock chopping is easier to learn, but the french/gyuto profiles and styles are more efficient, if you have the skill. However, because of its newness, I thought it best to bring this up.
    Sorry to suck the air out of the thread, but I had to add something here.

    A lot of what we are doing here, and what keeps us busy is pretty much modern archaeology. Everything we are learning about was common sense to smiths 150 years ago. It got lost in the modern age. Also, there are ways of doing things with kitchen cutlery that the Japanese have been doing for thousands of years that offer massive improvements in quality and ease, and those deserve to be incorporated. Luckily, we are at a time when folks are getting into food again, and have to cut things up to get it, and America is set up to provide a style of knife and knife culture that really IS new and different.

    But most of it is old hat. It took me 5 years to go from liking my parent's Sabatiers but not knowing if they are trash, to dissing them, to hating them, to respecting them, to loving them. I really wish my father would just give me his Sabs..he only uses one! Those knives are OLD SCHOOL and what do they have? Great tapers, convex grinds, well heat treated carbon steel, good characteristics of the steel, comfy handles, gentle flattish profiles, medium tip placement, balance right in front of the bolster--these are just run of the mill knives back in the day!

    I like to think that, once, every county had at least one blacksmith like Will Catcheside.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Deckhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurkeCutlery View Post
    That's the one that I recommend for cheap beaters, I carry it with me every day at work. On carbon steel, you can get a real nice edge off of it. My CCK 1303 responds well enough to it that I can shave arm hair with it after weeks and weeks of not being sharpened(which means the edge is gone, because CCK steel is C.R.A.P.). It's a 1200 grit rod, and you need to keep an eraser near it because it loads through use.

    However, it doesn't bring out the best in harder knives or thicker blades. I've been meaning to try out a smoother one, but just haven't gotten around to it. I tend to be the "if the edge don't last all day, I did it wrong" type of guy, though I do want to check some out, like the Hand American Borosilicate rod. Just got no dollars for it.
    And they are out of stock.

    Btw almost feel like I am doing something wrong clicking on a thread called nouveau technique by pink bunny.

  3. #13
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    Borosilicate rod is nice, I use it after I touch up with my ceramic, gets you a little bit more refined edge, I don't always use it though, sometimes I enjoy the edge I get off just a ceramic.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Deckhand View Post
    And they are out of stock.

    Btw almost feel like I am doing something wrong clicking on a thread called nouveau technique by pink bunny.
    I promise, I'm a good southern boy and manly man. Hunt, fish, woodwork...cook and bake...forget the last part.
    Was trying to make up a email name while visiting grandparents as child. All the good names were taken, so I picked random objects in the room.

    At least I didn't use the original entire name, pinkfluffybunniestakepills. =p

  5. #15
    Senior Member Deckhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBunny View Post
    I promise, I'm a good southern boy and manly man. Hunt, fish, woodwork...cook and bake...forget the last part.
    Was trying to make up a email name while visiting grandparents as child. All the good names were taken, so I picked random objects in the room.

    At least I didn't use the original entire name, pinkfluffybunniestakepills. =p
    No harm intended. Just saying my wife might give me the evil eye for clicking on it.
    In regards to Williams and Sonoma and sur la table. They used to be toy stores for me, but as my tastes have gotten more refined and expensive. Less interests me there. Still glad they exist.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BurkeCutlery View Post
    Sorry to suck the air out of the thread, but I had to add something here.

    A lot of what we are doing here, and what keeps us busy is pretty much modern archaeology. Everything we are learning about was common sense to smiths 150 years ago. It got lost in the modern age. Also, there are ways of doing things with kitchen cutlery that the Japanese have been doing for thousands of years that offer massive improvements in quality and ease, and those deserve to be incorporated. Luckily, we are at a time when folks are getting into food again, and have to cut things up to get it, and America is set up to provide a style of knife and knife culture that really IS new and different.

    But most of it is old hat. It took me 5 years to go from liking my parent's Sabatiers but not knowing if they are trash, to dissing them, to hating them, to respecting them, to loving them. I really wish my father would just give me his Sabs..he only uses one! Those knives are OLD SCHOOL and what do they have? Great tapers, convex grinds, well heat treated carbon steel, good characteristics of the steel, comfy handles, gentle flattish profiles, medium tip placement, balance right in front of the bolster--these are just run of the mill knives back in the day!

    I like to think that, once, every county had at least one blacksmith like Will Catcheside.
    This, of course, leads to some further questions:
    I chose this video because it has all three ways of using your knife as a flat surface.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuATCZ8kQxk
    At 1:10, scraping food onto knife, without scraping knife on board.
    At 3:10, scraping food onto knife, by scraping the knife on the board.
    At 4:13, using the knife like a putty knife when mincing, to keep everything together, by scraping the knife on the board.

    With harder steels, and more acute angles, is this not recommended, because there would be lateral force acting on the knife's edge? Or is it alright if you have a convex grind on your blade. Or is it more forgiving to use the on the softer range of board hardwoods, like cherry.

    Bringing up convex grinds also begs the question, is it culinarily useful? I know it would be useful on knives that see heavy work, like cleavers and possibly boners. However, what about others?

    Paring/Petty knives: Is it useful to have convex grinds? Since they do a lot of detail work with the tip, is it better to have the tougher edges of a convex grind? Especially considering everyone always remembers to sharpen their chef and carving knives, paring knives seem to fall by the wayside. Also, as you frequently work with acidic citrus fruits with paring knives, is it better to have a beefier edge?

    Carving/Sujihiki/Yanagi - Is it a good idea to have a convex grind, in case, heaven forbid, you nick a bone? Or is it better to keep the knife as sharp as possible, to carve better with the least(preferably one) amount of strokes?

    Nakiri/Chinese Cleaver - Different knives, yes, but narrow blades that both do a proportionally greater amount of push cuts and chopping. As those are harder on the blade than rock chopping, is it better to have the tougher convex edge? Especially considering the dubious quality steel of authentic chinese cleavers?

    Gyuto - The big guy. Is it a good idea to put convex edges on these knives? They, because of their profile, do more push cuts and chopping than germannic style knives, and this is harder on the edges. Is the trade-off in keenness worth it? I remember one of Saltydog's video's I saw last night had a gyuto with a convex edge.

  7. #17
    I believe the convex edge also plays a role in "stickyness", or how food releases from the blade. I think this is a more important than strengthening the edge.

    Also I disagree that push cutting is harder on the edge than rock chopping. If done properly you aren't slamming the knife into the board each time, you should just be barely kissing the board. As such, only a small portion of the blade makes contact with the board as opposed to rock chopping which has the entire blade edge hitting the board each stroke.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBunny View Post
    This, of course, leads to some further questions:
    I chose this video because it has all three ways of using your knife as a flat surface.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuATCZ8kQxk
    At 1:10, scraping food onto knife, without scraping knife on board.
    At 3:10, scraping food onto knife, by scraping the knife on the board.
    At 4:13, using the knife like a putty knife when mincing, to keep everything together, by scraping the knife on the board.

    With harder steels, and more acute angles, is this not recommended, because there would be lateral force acting on the knife's edge? Or is it alright if you have a convex grind on your blade. Or is it more forgiving to use the on the softer range of board hardwoods, like cherry.
    The first time he does that, at 1:10, you can hear the knife battering along the board. That means that the edge is grabbing the wood and being popped out. A soft steel knife like his, it will fall out of alignment pretty fast. If his edge were hard and acute, as you describe it, the knife wouldn't do that. Once it grabs, it sticks, or else it doesn't grab and scrapes along the board. I dont recommend scraping the board with the edge of your knife because it is abusive, but it is by no means forbidden. One advantage to higher end cutlery steels that are well heat treated is that they withstand edge rolling like that pretty well. Some steels, like Tojiro's VG-10, is a large carbide stainless that, because of how it is heat treated, is prone to chipping from doing things like that. Not giant, 1mm chips, just microchips that take away from the quality of your edge--this is called "carbide popout".

    The problem with 3:10 is not the knife on the board, you can totally use a knife as a scoop without any issues. But he scrapes it on the pan! That's either going to dull your knife or shave pieces of the pan into the food and jack up your cookware. It's ok if you don't give a crap about your things, but that is the kind of behavior that in a pro kitchen tells the management you dont care about the place--they pay money for equipment, and then you're scraping knives on pans.

    The cherry tomato think was pretty cool. I have to admit, I do not ever cut a small amount of cherry tomatoes like that unless it is one at a time. Usually I put them between lids and cut like 30 at a time. But that is a good little technique. You can use your knife to scoop food, whack garlic, open bags, whatever--there are just a FEW really insanely bad ideas that people seem strangely adamant about being allowed to do, like cutting on glass, putting the knife in a drawer loose with the silverware, putting it in the dishwasher, hacking at frozen blocks of ice, etc.

    Allow me to use this video to illustrate the difference I talk about between knife skills and what I call "dull knife skills". This guy clearly is comfortable and happy with the way he cooks and cuts. I'm sure he's wonderful. But if you notice at 4:03, he cuts a swath of herbs off the bunch--this is literally a fluffy bunch of leaves, and in order to cut it off the bunch, you can see him putting his shoulder into it, because the knife does not cut unless the herbs are pinned between it and board. It doesn't have to be that way! The knife should just hop through leafy herbs, you can save your shoulder the trouble of working your way through the food and your knife will just cut the dang thing. This is not a technique issue, it's a knife quality issue. His technique has been adapted to the point that he is comfortable with the concept and motion of doing that extra work to get food cut. But it makes things less than joyful for new cooks, and over time, it causes strain and repetative motion injury in professionals.

    Not to mention you have to smash the herbs onto the board to cut them up. I was shocked when I found out that if you cut green onions with a sharp knife and rinse them, they stay plump and fresh looking for days. If my wife cut an apple for my kid a few hours before I come home, and it's sitting on the counter, I can grab a piece and eat it, because it is fresh as a lily.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBunny View Post
    Bringing up convex grinds also begs the question, is it culinarily useful? I know it would be useful on knives that see heavy work, like cleavers and possibly boners. However, what about others?

    Paring/Petty knives: Is it useful to have convex grinds? Since they do a lot of detail work with the tip, is it better to have the tougher edges of a convex grind? Especially considering everyone always remembers to sharpen their chef and carving knives, paring knives seem to fall by the wayside. Also, as you frequently work with acidic citrus fruits with paring knives, is it better to have a beefier edge?

    Carving/Sujihiki/Yanagi - Is it a good idea to have a convex grind, in case, heaven forbid, you nick a bone? Or is it better to keep the knife as sharp as possible, to carve better with the least(preferably one) amount of strokes?

    Nakiri/Chinese Cleaver - Different knives, yes, but narrow blades that both do a proportionally greater amount of push cuts and chopping. As those are harder on the blade than rock chopping, is it better to have the tougher convex edge? Especially considering the dubious quality steel of authentic chinese cleavers?

    Gyuto - The big guy. Is it a good idea to put convex edges on these knives? They, because of their profile, do more push cuts and chopping than germannic style knives, and this is harder on the edges. Is the trade-off in keenness worth it? I remember one of Saltydog's video's I saw last night had a gyuto with a convex edge.

    Convex edges and convex grinds are two different things. A convex grind occurs on the blade FACES, not the edge bevels. The edge bevel is always convex to some extent or another unless you sharpen with a really well-made jig(which will allow for precisely flat bevels). A flat cutting edge provides no demonstratable advantage, and is anecdotally believed to be more prone to chipping. If you sharpen by hand, you WILL wobble, because you are an organism, not a device, and the convexing will happen. Kitchen knives rarely, if ever, have the extreme convex edges like you see on outdoor knives like a Bark River knife--partly due to the style of upkeep being unpopular, and also because it doesn't lend itself to the face grinds that we all know and love.

    Convex grinds are on the blade faces. A lot of knives are being flat ground because it is easy to machine, it requires less skill for a maker to grind flat bevels than to manage a 3 dimensional curved object with high points in the right places in relation to the edge. Also it is cheaper(a LOT cheaper) on factory machines to grind out flat grinds because the machine makes precise passes, leaving very flat bevels in it's wake. Blending them together would require so many passes on a machine it would become prohibitively expensive, though with human hands, you can do it no problem.

    The difference for push cutting and slicing is all in the polish on the edge. I will do a video about this soon, because I can demonstrate it easily on cheap knives--a knife can be sharpened so that it will push cut a carrot like it's not there and will not break the skin of a tomato. Then you can put a super toothy edge on it and it'll make short work of the tomato, fall through it even, and take twice as long for the carrot. It's all about the level of finish, and though home cooks don't need many knives, I think pro cooks that are doing demanding fine dining should have different knives set aside for different edge qualities, if you want the best.


    Please do not think that we are riding crystal bicycles here. You would be shocked the kind of **** I do to my knives at work, from the way I implore people to treat them with respect. Do I smack the faucet knob with the spine to turn it on and rinse my hands and blade in the prep sink? Yep. Do I split sweet potatoes the size of my forearm by hitting them with the knife and then picking the potato up with it and dropping it down like a hammer? Yep. All that stuff is a day in the life, and I can still top and tail all my produce over the trash can in mid air to save time, because I'm not abusing the edge beyond it's limits.

  9. #19
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    Don't confuse convex grinds with convexed edges - they are two different things. Convex grind refers to the shape of the blade face, while a convexed edge is in contrast to the "V" shaped edge that most of us put on our knives.

    A high degree of convexity in the grind of the blade face can aid in food release but there is a tradeoff in terms of the ability to "fall though" food. A good example of this is the new "Ultimatum", which is highly convexed to provide excellent food release, but which wedges in root vegetables like carrots and potatoes. Another example are the knives of Marko Tsourkan, who has been doing a lot of experimentation with his grinds to find a happy medium. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/sh...with-new-grind

    Convexed edges have often been characterized as being stronger than "V"-edges, and they are, to a degree. Neither edge will fare well when hitting bone, though. The trick with convexed edges is maintaining them, as it either requires a belt grinder or use of the "mousepad and sandpaper" technique. Of course, you can approximate a convex edge with a series of microbevels.

    Now, as to your questions about convexed edges and kitchen knives, I can only answer from my perspective as a home user that a "V"-edge is more than adequate for kitchen use. I have tried convex edges and noted no improvement in edge retention.

    As far as using your knife to scrape a board, either flip the knife and use the spine or a get a dedicated food scraper. Your edges, convex or "V", will thank you.

    Rick

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkBunny View Post
    This, of course, leads to some further questions:
    I chose this video because it has all three ways of using your knife as a flat surface.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuATCZ8kQxk
    At 1:10, scraping food onto knife, without scraping knife on board.
    At 3:10, scraping food onto knife, by scraping the knife on the board.
    At 4:13, using the knife like a putty knife when mincing, to keep everything together, by scraping the knife on the board.

    With harder steels, and more acute angles, is this not recommended, because there would be lateral force acting on the knife's edge? Or is it alright if you have a convex grind on your blade. Or is it more forgiving to use the on the softer range of board hardwoods, like cherry.

    Bringing up convex grinds also begs the question, is it culinarily useful? I know it would be useful on knives that see heavy work, like cleavers and possibly boners. However, what about others?

    Paring/Petty knives: Is it useful to have convex grinds? Since they do a lot of detail work with the tip, is it better to have the tougher edges of a convex grind? Especially considering everyone always remembers to sharpen their chef and carving knives, paring knives seem to fall by the wayside. Also, as you frequently work with acidic citrus fruits with paring knives, is it better to have a beefier edge?

    Carving/Sujihiki/Yanagi - Is it a good idea to have a convex grind, in case, heaven forbid, you nick a bone? Or is it better to keep the knife as sharp as possible, to carve better with the least(preferably one) amount of strokes?

    Nakiri/Chinese Cleaver - Different knives, yes, but narrow blades that both do a proportionally greater amount of push cuts and chopping. As those are harder on the blade than rock chopping, is it better to have the tougher convex edge? Especially considering the dubious quality steel of authentic chinese cleavers?

    Gyuto - The big guy. Is it a good idea to put convex edges on these knives? They, because of their profile, do more push cuts and chopping than germannic style knives, and this is harder on the edges. Is the trade-off in keenness worth it? I remember one of Saltydog's video's I saw last night had a gyuto with a convex edge.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Cadillac J's Avatar
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    PB, remember...there is a difference between convex grind and convex edge.

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