Honyaki?

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Namaxy

Namaxy

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I realize this is likely an 'it depends' and 'varies by personal preference' type of question. For single bevel knifes, especially of the thin slicing ilk, are Honyaki constructed knives considered more classic or traditional? Are there peformance advantages associated with them, or it it more that since it's a difficult, hand made process, they are revered for how they are made and they tend to be found only at the higher end?

Thanks
 
My own $.02 is that honyaki blades are admired for their craftsmanship, and have few if any real performance advantages over "standard" blades.
 
Honyaki or "true-forged" knives are constructed entirely out of one piece of virgin carbon steel. So unlike Kasumi knives, which are constructed out of soft iron and carbon, they aren't flexible at all. However, because they are made out of a hard steel they are sharper and have a longer kirenaga (duration of sharpness). They are difficult to forge and shape so they are often expensive. Craftsmen require a great amount of skill to forge honyaki knives and chefs need a lot of experience to use and care for them. Honyaki Japanese knives chip, crack, or break easily if used or sharpened improperly, therefore they are mostly geared towards highly advanced users. Japanese chefs have told me that there is nothing that could beat the kireaji (literally means the taste of the edge, but in this case means sharpness) of a honyaki knife, and most top sushi chefs prefer them.
 
I think I must be confused...I thought honyaki was soft spine for flex and hard edge for cutting...fairly difficult process to get right? In other words...not a single piece of steel, but more of a homogeneous blade?
 
@ Chinacats...The soft steel is made from the same steel as the edge, the reason it is soft is because clay is applied during the heat treatment process, which changes the way the spine hardens. Keep in mind I know absolutely nothing about metallurgy, but I have read about the process of creating Honyaki knives many times on these forums and others.
 
stereo.pete said:
@ Chinacats...The soft steel is made from the same steel as the edge, the reason it is soft is because clay is applied during the heat treatment process, which changes the way the spine hardens. Keep in mind I know absolutely nothing about metallurgy, but I have read about the process of creating Honyaki knives many times on these forums and others.
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Thanks SP, I stay confused and there is much here to aid my confusion! :scratchhead: Your explanation helps! :O
 
chinacats said:
I think I must be confused...I thought honyaki was soft spine for flex and hard edge for cutting...fairly difficult process to get right? In other words...not a single piece of steel, but more of a homogeneous blade?
Click to expand...

The blade is monosteel that is differentially hardened, it will overall be harder than a kasumi knife. The process of differential hardening is also where the hamon comes from.
 
Why would honyaki be sharper than kasumi, if say both are hardened to 63RC and made of the same steel and heat treated comparably, water quenched?

I do agree that honyaki knives are more difficult to produce (mizu honyaki that is) and that the failure rate (warping and cracking) is higher, and that sharpening 64RC blade, particularly yanagi where surface is wide, is difficult. All that adds to cost and becomes a necessity to offer them as premium knives with greater finish and materials, so they become a status symbol.

But all things being equal (same steel, same hardness, same heat treatment), there should be no difference in sharpness or edge retention.

If honyaki chips and breaks if dropped, that is a sign of higher hardness and that alone can contribute to better edge holding, but not sharpness.

M
 
What about Suisin INOX honyaki, is it not honyaki?

-AJ
 
Typically real kazumi knives are made out soft iron and carbon, while real honyaki are always made out of pure virgin carbon, therefore they would never be made out of the same steel, have the same hardness or have the same heat treatment. If you plan to use a different steel to make a honyaki knife, it is no longer a traditional honyaki knife. Sorry, by sharper I guess I meant would stay sharper for longer and in turn be sharper during use.

Yes, it probably is a status symbol to a certain extent, but it also means you have the skills to use it. Also just a side note, most Japanese knife crafters don't use the RC system, and even if they did it would be hard to judge the RC of a knife that is handmade and different each time.


Mr. Doi's son is making a kasumi blade here.
 
My understanding is that the inox is monosteel but not differntially hardened like honyaki. It is honyaki only in the sense that it is one piece of steel.
 
Korin_Mari said:
Honyaki or "true-forged" knives are constructed entirely out of one piece of virgin carbon steel. So unlike Kasumi knives, which are constructed out of soft iron and carbon, they aren't flexible at all. However, because they are made out of a hard steel they are sharper and have a longer kirenaga (duration of sharpness). They are difficult to forge and shape so they are often expensive. Craftsmen require a great amount of skill to forge honyaki knives and chefs need a lot of experience to use and care for them. Honyaki Japanese knives chip, crack, or break easily if used or sharpened improperly, therefore they are mostly geared towards highly advanced users. Japanese chefs have told me that there is nothing that could beat the kireaji (literally means the taste of the edge, but in this case means sharpness) of a honyaki knife, and most top sushi chefs prefer them.
Click to expand...
Thanks for our answer. Definitely an asset having you here.
 
Korin_Mari said:
Typically real kazumi knives are made out soft iron and carbon, while real honyaki are always made out of pure virgin carbon, therefore they would never be made out of the same steel, have the same hardness or have the same heat treatment. If you plan to use a different steel to make a honyaki knife, it is no longer a traditional honyaki knife. Sorry, by sharper I guess I meant would stay sharper for longer and in turn be sharper during use.

Yes, it probably is a status symbol to a certain extent, but it also means you have the skills to use it. Also just a side note, most Japanese knife crafters don't use the RC system, and even if they did it would be hard to judge the RC of a knife that is handmade and different each time.


Mr. Doi's son is making a kasumi blade here.
Click to expand...

actually, with regard to steel, this is not quite true. I will first say that the heat treatment and hardening often differs from awase bocho (kasumi knives and such). However, white #2 steel will still be white #2 steel whether it is in an awase bocho or honyaki bocho. Same for white #1, blue steel of all types, tamahagane, and so on.

Also, Suisin's INOX Honyaki is Zen-ko... a solid piece of steel. The heat treatment process differs here from honyaki bocho, but it is not awase bocho either. Zen-ko refers to the construction of knives like Suisin's INOX Honyaki, INOX Western, Gesshin Ginga, Sakai Yusuke, Konosuke, etc. (specifically referring to the solid steel knives from the last couple).
 
I thought that honyaki simply meant forged to shape from one piece of steel (monosteel). I did not think steel type, differential heat treat or having a hamon were requisite.

-AJ
 
there are of course variations in the definition and the literal translation leaves much to be desired with regard to understanding what it is (honyaki= true forged). However, most japanese craftsmen will agree that a honyaki knife is hand forged from a solid piece of pure carbon steel (usually white #2, though others can also be used), and is heat treated in a manner consistent with such (using clay or a clay mixture to coat the blade and spine creating a differential tempering and usually a hamon). The quenching can occur in either oil or water (when water is used, the knife can be called mizu-honyaki). Many other knives are called honyaki because they are solid pieces of steel, but the correct term is zen-ko.
 
I hope there isn't a quiz. I would fail miserably.
 
Ah ha, getting clearer. So they do need to be differentially heat treated. Is the use of clay a necessity?

Also, what does "virgin carbon steel" or "pure carbon steel" mean? In my world that means steel made with no recycled content. Which in regards to mechanical properties means very little in most cases, for example, an exception would be when you are trying to avoid that nasty little bastard Boron.

-AJ
 
for the most part i would say yes to the heat treatment. On clay, not necessarily. Everyone has a different mix they use. So far, everyone i have talked to has some kind of clay in it, but i have heard of other variations.
 
Would be interesting to know if Suisin's honyaki stainless is oil or water quenched. My guess is the former. AJ - interesting question re the terminology. Those aren't defined steel types in, for example, industrial process equipment.
 
Namaxy said:
Would be interesting to know if Suisin's honyaki stainless is oil or water quenched. My guess is the former. AJ - interesting question re the terminology. Those aren't defined steel types in, for example, industrial process equipment.
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Oil is a good guess. According to Sandvik site, for 19C27 steel, for optimal result 1110°F should be reached within 2 minutes or less (from 1960F austenitizing temperature).

http://www.smt.sandvik.com/en/produ...ening-programs/sandvik-19c27-piece-hardening/

M
 
Maybe they should just take out the Honyaki out the title Suisin Inox Honyaki and call it a day. Saves on the confusion. I don't think it is a true forged Honyaki to being with, just a hunch.
 
JBroida said:
actually, with regard to steel, this is not quite true. I will first say that the heat treatment and hardening often differs from awase bocho (kasumi knives and such). However, white #2 steel will still be white #2 steel whether it is in an awase bocho or honyaki bocho. Same for white #1, blue steel of all types, tamahagane, and so on.

Also, Suisin's INOX Honyaki is Zen-ko... a solid piece of steel. The heat treatment process differs here from honyaki bocho, but it is not awase bocho either. Zen-ko refers to the construction of knives like Suisin's INOX Honyaki, INOX Western, Gesshin Ginga, Sakai Yusuke, Konosuke, etc. (specifically referring to the solid steel knives from the last couple).
Click to expand...

Hi hi, sorry I'm a bit confused to as to what is being disagreed with. Yes, white steel will be white steel regardless. Kasumi adds a strip of soft iron, hence the other name awase bocho, but it doesn't change the classification of the steel. I was referring to was the comment "But all things being equal (same steel, same hardness, same heat treatment), there should be no difference in sharpness or edge retention." This, as we both know, is definitely not true. The forging process is different, the hardness is different, and the material is slightly different.

I have never heard of it being referred to as zen-ko. Thats neat, thanks for the information. Would you be so kind to give me the kanji for it so I can research? :)
 
「全鋼」と書いて、「ぜんこう」と読みます。割り込み包丁とは構造は違いますが、鋼の素材そのものが必ずしも違うわけではないようです。私たちも勉強中ですので、お互い、お役に立て合えたらいいですね
 
JBroida said:
「全鋼」と書いて、「ぜんこう」と読みます。割り込み包丁とは構造は違いますが、鋼の素材そのものが必ずしも違うわけではないようです。私たちも勉強中ですので、お互い、お役に立て合えたらいいですね
Click to expand...

Just so we keep this a open and sharing forum so we can all understand what John is saying this is how the kanji translates, mind you my japanese is a little rusty.
The two kanji is read "zenkou" which means full steel or 100% steel
I mean, full carbon steel, but it says it's slightly different from folding carbon steel but yet, also not exactly only just carbon.

I think the mystery continues:cheffry:
 
Is there a requirement for a minimum number of folds for honyaki?

-AJ
 
Interesting. Is there a specific name for a forged monosteel knife that is folded multiple times?

-AJ
 
Cool term :) In Russian slang zenki means eyes, almost the same huh.
Anyway, I'll add to my Japanese knives terminology page.
Can't read kanji though...
 
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