No Burr

I tried searching for this info but "No Burr" brings up a lot of hits!

I am struggling to get a burr on my 1000/6000 King stone.

I am starting with a Chosera 400 and had no problems getting a burr on both sides of the blade. On the 1000 side, it seems like all I am doing is getting a mirror polish on the edge. But no burr.

So far I have had the same consistent experience with a Kikuichi-monji paring knife, Nenohi petty and Suisin INOX honayaki suji. I think all 3 of those are pretty hard knives.

Basically I am stroking on the 1000 until I get bored and stopping. I have not progressed up to the 6000 yet. I do my knives one all on one stone at a time.

The knives have gone from dull to hair shaving sharp so I am getting that progress.

I don't want to spend half a day on each side of a knife waiting to get a burr. Am I always supposed to get a burr?

Thanks,

-AJ

I keep a king 1k/6k at the beach house, and use it on a Hiro G3, CCK, Wustoff santoku and Sab slicer.....I can usually raise a burr along the entire length of the blade within 10 min.
I'd suggest you lift the spine a hair

Verify with a marker that you reached the very edge. Different stones, different body position, and the angle is slightly different.

Are you using the magic marker 'trick' to see if you are hitting the edge?

ajhuff said:

...it seems like all I am doing is getting a mirror polish on the edge.

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Rare but could it be, not enough pressure?

Some commenters seem to have missed OP's point that his knives go from dull to shaving sharp: of course he's reaching the edge. I haven't looked for a burr for a couple of years now, and my blades are also satisfyingly sharp. I think when your technique gets to a certain point, burrs become irrelevant. They may be there at lower grits, they may not. The end result is what matters.

wsfarrell said:

Some commenters seem to have missed OP's point that his knives go from dull to shaving sharp: of course he's reaching the edge. I haven't looked for a burr for a couple of years now, and my blades are also satisfyingly sharp. I think when your technique gets to a certain point, burrs become irrelevant. They may be there at lower grits, they may not. The end result is what matters.

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I beg to differ. "Shaving sharp" is a pretty meaningless term. You can shave your arm with a 400 grit edge. The OP may or may not be hitting the edge at higher grits.

1000 grit burrs can be hard to feel, so that may be the issue, and if that's the case, the OP does need to use the marker "trick" to make sure he is hitting the edge.

Rick

If the burr is really thin, you may not be feeling it but it will be there. Check it out under a loupe.

One of the advantages of carbon knives is that the marker trick is automatically built in: the patina.

Marker comes off all the way to the edge. I'm pretty satisfied with that. But I certainly cannot feel a burr. :-(

-AJ

I think it has to do with the king 1000. It's a very muddy clay like stone. You can build up quite a polish from that mud...

Maybe, after your done on the 1000, rinse it clean and strop on it with just a splash of water....

markenki said:

One of the advantages of carbon knives is that the marker trick is automatically built in: the patina.

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May I respectfully disagree? If the very edge is hit with the 400-stone, but not with the 1000, you won't see
a patina yet on the unreached part which has been freshly abraded by the 400.

ajhuff said:

Marker comes off all the way to the edge. I'm pretty satisfied with that. But I certainly cannot feel a burr. :-(

-AJ

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If you are hitting the edge, then as wsfarrell suggested, don't sweat it. All the burr serves to do is give you tactile confirmation that you've hit the edge, and if you are getting visual confirmation that's all you need.

Rick

I've had a similar complaint from customers regarding the King stones. They told me that the stones wears down before their knives get sharp. When I asked Mr. Sugai, he told me that the king stones haven't changed what their material is made of, so they're not really up to date with current harder material knives. I assume they would do wonders on carbon knives or softer materials, but maybe just not for your particular knife.

If you want the burr, you may want to try a lower grit stone and work your way to the #1000 grit stones. This is what Mr. Sugai does to make sharpening easier.

Jordan may be getting a burr but doesn't realize it. I was in the same boat as him until Dave Martell found very narrow burrs along the edge of my knives. Until he had me feel them I would't have known, but after stropping they were gone and the knives definitely performed better. I thought burrs were wire sized strips of metal easily seen by the naked eye.

I've found the swarf buildup on my fingers from certain stones can greatly dampen my ability to feel burrs, especially smaller ones, and often have to scrub my fingertips clean to check my progress. Only with really muddy stones though and only because after 20 years of manning a flattop grill, my fingers are pretty much numb anyways.

mano said:

Jordan may be getting a burr but doesn't realize it...

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Yup.

You guys can call me AJ, it sounds friendlier than OP.

Good info Mari. Perhaps I need to look into a harder stone?

-AJ

Why would you want to raise another burr after your initial 400/500 grit burr? If it's getting sharp but it's so fine/thin that you can't feel it, I would say you're doing a great job. Any further burr formation is merely wasting metal or completely removing deeper scratches that you need to keep your edge aggressive longer.

I thought you were supposed to raise a Burr with each progressive stone?

-AJ

ajhuff said:

I thought you were supposed to raise a Burr with each progressive stone?

-AJ

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Nope, only once.

The purpose of the burr is to prove you have reached the intersection of the two planes on the blade. After that you work to refine the edge which you can either wear the burr away through progressively finer stones, pull the knife edge through felt, cork or what ever to strip off the burr or put a micro-bevel on the edge which will kind of cut the burr off.

That's all true, and nobody will make me believe a burr to have disappeared spontaniously on a 1000 stone.

Andrew H said:

Nope, only once.

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Well then I guess problem solved. So if you don't sharpen until you develop a Burr on each progressive stone, how do you know when to move on?

I must have really misunderstood the process because I have been trying to flip the Burr on each stone for years!

-AJ

ajhuff said:

... how do you know when to move on?
-AJ

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What I do is periodically stop, wipe the blade dry and test the blade on newspaper. What I look for is how easily the knife slices through a page and I also listen as the paper is being cut. I want to be able to slice a page, which is the easiest cut on my coarsest stone. I may also be able to push-cut at this point but I'll get hung up somewhere along the way. After moving on to the finer stones, I'll be able to easily push-cut a page and then for my final test I want to be able to pull-cut a page by holding the blade in a fixed position and pull the paper up. While I cutting up the paper, the sounds I'm looking for go from almost a paper tearing sound to finally the gentle hiss a tea kettle makes before it comes to a full boil.

Yup, like 99 I check often with printer paper or newspaper. Polish can also be a good indicator depending on what kind of stone you are using.

Very interesting. I went back and looked and my flipping of the burr on each stone comes directly from Chad Wards book with additional influence from the JCK website and Korin's sharpening video.

-AJ

If you can feel a burr off a stone above 5k You have more sensitive fingers than I.
Of course you are forming a burr on each stone but I don't think anyone is slaving away on a 10k until they can feel a burr and then forming one on the other side.

I haven't got that far yet LOL! I'm still working on the 1000 stone remember?

-AJ

ajhuff said:

The knives have gone from dull to hair shaving sharp so I am getting that progress.

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Does anything else matter? Really?

Keep looking into your bellybutton if you wish, but if you've got an edge you're happy with, what's the problem?

Stu.