The Deba thread again

Ok with my last purchase I have raised my spending bar a bit, and I found I was ok so far with the ammount. Now that I have some solid traditional knives in my "set", Watanabe Ajikiri, Knousuki Usuba, and now a Kochi Yanagi, I'm back to looking/researching my Deba for the traditional KU set.

What I need are new guide lines on what I should be looking for as far as physical atributes. Length and thickness and all. So here is what I will most likely be using it on, Salmon 5-10 range, Bass, trout, and so on. Maybe a few halabut but those may be just purchased as fillets. This is going to be a Home Use knife and do not plan on taking it to work so I will not need to push the size to accept the bigger fish.

As with all my knives, Carbon steel is a must, handmade, and of course KU. These are secondary to this post as I really just want to see what Deba styles would best suit my needs. Then I can start looking for makers that specialize in these areas to make the deba (and for some reason I see Jon rubbing his hands together ).

So please post your likes and dislikes of the different designs of Deba

To be honest, Deba seem to be very consistent between brands. I've never seen many different designs in a Deba; a Deba just tends to be a Deba... Which is why I don't like spending too much on such a knife that's already so expensive, and I'm certainly not going beyond white #2 on a deba.

But if you're talking about mioroshi deba vs regular deba, I always vote regular deba as the extra heft and thickness of a regular deba helps. I am 100% against all "inbetweener" knives like mioroshi deba or kiritsuke. They don't do anything as well as a real yanagi, a real usuba, or a real deba,

I would say get a standard deba, maybe choose a slightly larger size because you have the ajikiri to handle the small tasks, I would imagine you could order kurouchi from just about any maker you wanted. If in the same situation I would just give Jon a price and size and see what can be had.

phan1 said:

I am 100% against all "inbetweener" knives like mioroshi deba or kiritsuke. They don't do anything as well as a real yanagi, a real usuba, or a real deba,

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I have to disagree with this. I see kiritsuke as the single-bevel equivalent to the gyuto, it is one knife that can do everything, but other task-specific knives may do those tasks better. I don't see much reason for mioroshi over hondeba, except maybe specific settings in which it might be a better choice.

kiritsuke is a combination of yanagiba and usuba... not quite a gyuto

phan1 said:

To be honest, Deba seem to be very consistent between brands. I've never seen many different designs in a Deba; a Deba just tends to be a Deba... Which is why I don't like spending too much on such a knife that's already so expensive, and I'm certainly not going beyond white #2 on a deba.

But if you're talking about mioroshi deba vs regular deba, I always vote regular deba as the extra heft and thickness of a regular deba helps. I am 100% against all "inbetweener" knives like mioroshi deba or kiritsuke. They don't do anything as well as a real yanagi, a real usuba, or a real deba,

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I can politely disagree with the second part there. For one, my mioroshi deba is 6mm at the spine so I'm not missing much if anything in thickness there. For another my mioroshi is actually better than my yanagi at slicing certain proteins because of the extra weight. Lastly, I can filet any size fish large or small extremely cleanly with my mioroshi. Maybe no better but also no worse than a regular deba. Remember though, 90% is the person holding the tool, the other 10% is the tool itself.

at 240mm, you are missing about 1/2 the thickness of a deba in your knife

that being said, glad its working out for you.

Mine's 270, but what I'm saying is, am I really "missing" anything. I whack through bones like they aren't even there. Sometimes I get a chip but that will happen with any knife with that sort of treatment from time to time.

Also Jon, hold a Gesshin Hide 210mm Deba for me. I will be getting one soon!

whoops... my bad. I thought it was 240. Sorry.

Anyways, consider this... think about the kind of fish a 270mm deba would be used on. I doubt you are breaking down those kind of fish with your mioroshi. Am i right. More than likely, you are breaking down fish that you might be breaking down with something like a 210mm deba. In that case, you're right about not "missing" anything. I do understand where you are coming from on this, but i think you can also see where i am coming from.

Roger that on the deba.

-Jon

JBroida said:

kiritsuke is a combination of yanagiba and usuba... not quite a gyuto

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Kiritsuke is one of my most often used knives, I definitely realize it is not even close to gyuto. I knew my wording did not quite express what I wanted to say, but I meant to say much the same as Theory; "Maybe no better but also no worse than". I was trying to say that the gyuto can perform slicer tasks, utility tasks, the full range of uses with one knife; kiritsuke performs yanagiba tasks, usuba tasks, or even mukimono tasks in one knife. The versatility of kiritsuke is similar to the versatility of gyuto, I did not intend to compare the knives, but the amount of versatility that "in-betweeners" (mioroshi, gyuto, kiritsuke) can offer.

Back to deba...

JBroida said:

whoops... my bad. I thought it was 240. Sorry.

Anyways, consider this... think about the kind of fish a 270mm deba would be used on. I doubt you are breaking down those kind of fish with your mioroshi. Am i right. More than likely, you are breaking down fish that you might be breaking down with something like a 210mm deba. In that case, you're right about not "missing" anything. I do understand where you are coming from on this, but i think you can also see where i am coming from.

Roger that on the deba.

-Jon

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I see what you mean about a true deba at 270mm. How thick would that thing even be? While I'm not carcking $750,000 tuna, I do however break down large fish up to 100lbs or so. Even skinning 25-35lb salmon would be neigh impossible with only a 210mm. I wouldn't do a lot of what I do with only a 210. I do need one however for the sub 30lb fish that we also do quite regularly. A lot of what I do could be done with a 210 deba AND another knife just for the skinning but I like to just use one knife for both tasks.

Just today for example I did 3 large salmon, 2 large red snapper, 1 medium Chilean sea bass and 6 small grouper. I would have liked to use a 210 on just the grouper really. While the snapper were only 16 lbs each, they were very wide. The dish we are currently doing is a potato wrapped snapper so I have to remove the skin. A 210 is not going to be able to do that on that fish nor the salmon I did today. Break it down, sure no biggie, it might even be better at it for sure, but then I gotta grab my yanagi or suji for skinning.

Although I did learn to clean fish with larger knives so it's just natural for me to use one, it is time for another addition to the family soon. A 210 would be perfect for me since I would be able to wield it on anything under my 270s range. I won't need a smaller deba for even smaller fish since I'm just used to using bigger knives anyway I guess. At least that's what I'll tell myself for as long as I can.

If I'm reading this right a 210 deba should be more than enough for my 10lb fish range? Or would a 180 be better in the 10lb range. Or is the 180 to close to the 120 Ajikiri in size and usefulness? At home I don't mind the need for 2 knives as I cook for fun and don't worry about efficientcy

I'm gauging the heft and feel off my Watanabe 210 Kaibou, I'm thinking it's like a mioroshi deba, would that be accurate?

ThEoRy said:

I see what you mean about a true deba at 270mm. How thick would that thing even be?

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I have a regular deba, fairly certain it's either 270 or 300mm and at the spine it's 9mm thick. I bought it off the classifieds here because it was super reasonable for what it was, to learn deba skills and to learn single bevel sharpening on something then my 300mm yangi. It may be a little unwieldly but not nearly as much as you would imagine with the weight/length, really alot of fun.

The hekler said:

I have a regular deba, fairly certain it's either 270 or 300mm and at the spine it's 9mm thick. I bought it off the classifieds here because it was super reasonable for what it was, to learn deba skills and to learn single bevel sharpening on something then my 300mm yangi. It may be a little unwieldly but not nearly as much as you would imagine with the weight/length, really alot of fun.

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Pics or it doesn't exist :just kidding: , but seriously I would love to see some pictures of said deba.

The hekler said:

I have a regular deba, fairly certain it's either 270 or 300mm and at the spine it's 9mm thick. I bought it off the classifieds here because it was super reasonable for what it was, to learn deba skills and to learn single bevel sharpening on something then my 300mm yangi. It may be a little unwieldly but not nearly as much as you would imagine with the weight/length, really alot of fun.

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I would guess that to be one of the thinner deba types. My 195mm deba is 9-10mm thick on the spine above the heel.

DwarvenChef said:

If I'm reading this right a 210 deba should be more than enough for my 10lb fish range? Or would a 180 be better in the 10lb range. Or is the 180 to close to the 120 Ajikiri in size and usefulness? At home I don't mind the need for 2 knives as I cook for fun and don't worry about efficientcy

I'm gauging the heft and feel off my Watanabe 210 Kaibou, I'm thinking it's like a mioroshi deba, would that be accurate?

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I think 210 deba is just fine for 10lb fish. I do Atlantic salmon with a 210 no problem, and it's still pretty nimble enough to do smaller fish as well.

And I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on these "tweener" knives. I think they're awful knives that don't work as well as the standard three: usuba, yanagi, deba. For what it's worth, I rarely (never actually) see any serious sushi guys using such knives. Users of the kiritsuke and mioroshi are all kitchen guys...

phan1 said:

I think 210 deba is just fine for 10lb fish. I do Atlantic salmon with a 210 no problem, and it's still pretty nimble enough to do smaller fish as well.

And I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on these "tweener" knives. I think they're awful knives that don't work as well as the standard three: usuba, yanagi, deba. For what it's worth, I rarely (never actually) see any serious sushi guys using such knives. Users of the kiritsuke and mioroshi are all kitchen guys...

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I'm confused as to your distinction between 'serious sushi guys' and 'kitchen guys'...

stereo.pete said:

Pics or it doesn't exist :just kidding: , but seriously I would love to see some pictures of said deba.

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Alas I am away from my knives at the moment. Stationed down in Pensacola with the navy while my knives are all locked up in New Jersey which is why I can't remember the exact size of said deba. I do know that I wouldn't want to have it any thicker though because as long and as thick as it is it is quite heavy, never actually put it on a scale but I wouldn't be surprise if it was almost 2lbs... Again don't quote me as I am going on memories from when I last held it in November, but it certainly is a beast.


PS a few minutes with the search box and I found the original Classifieds ad, turns out it was a 270 and yup about 9mm thick at the spine pics included.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2854-Unagisaki-270-deba-Tadatsuna-300-gyuto

The hekler said:

Alas I am away from my knives at the moment. Stationed down in Pensacola with the navy while my knives are all locked up in New Jersey which is why I can't remember the exact size of said deba. I do know that I wouldn't want to have it any thicker though because as long and as thick as it is it is quite heavy, never actually put it on a scale but I wouldn't be surprise if it was almost 2lbs... Again don't quote me as I am going on memories from when I last held it in November, but it certainly is a beast.


PS a few minutes with the search box and I found the original Classifieds ad, turns out it was a 270 and yup about 9mm thick at the spine pics included.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/2854-Unagisaki-270-deba-Tadatsuna-300-gyuto

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Thanks, that is a real beauty of a knife.

I can understand the purest issue just fine, but alas I am not a sushi guy so I'll be ok as a kitchen guy

I've used Curtis's Carter Mioroshi deba and found it rather nice but I have not tried any others. I have played with a Deba or two but that was so long ago i don't recall any details.

That said, would a mioroshi serve me well sence I'm not really doing sushi on a regular basis... On the other hand if I'm using the Mioroshi to fully process my fish I wouldn't be using my Koshi yanagi... that would be a bad thing...

Ok I'm on the traditional Deba track again...

As a home cook who don't have a need to break down fish bigger than 3kg on a regular basis, I now feel that my cheapie 210 deba is way beyond the need. Although its heft comes in handy when splitting big snapper head. I have a 180mm on order, and this 210 will then be a beater as lobster splitter etc.

For small fish, which is what I handle most of the time, am loving my little ajikiri/kodeba, as well as 195 mioroshi.

That's what I'm saying man! You got a Koshi yanagi already, so why would I recommend a mioroshi for? But of course it's your decision and there are lots of credible people on these boards that will give you differing opinions. It's no different from getting a 2nd opinion from a different doctor. But there are some really hard boned fish like snapper that would benefit from a deba, a knife that is nearly twice the weight of a mioroshi. That's a big difference, so while I can't guarantee you which one is right for you, I can sure as hell guarantee that you would prefer one over the other. And considering the price of such knives, this becomes a pretty big decision. Big enough to drive on down to JKI and see for yourself. And you don't have to be a serious sushi guy to have a well rounded set of knives

As for serious sushi guys vs kitchen guys, I've already gone over the distinction. One uses usuba, deba, and yanagi. The other has a wierd collection of yo-debas, kiritsukes, petty-sized debas, sujihikis, and whatever other cool looking gizmos knife makers are coming up with.

Love all the discussion. My next deba will be an exact replica of theory's mioroshi deba. I will have no regrets.

Can we leave petty-sized debas alone? I love my ajikiri and kodeba.

Aji is quite fresh, abundance, and cheap around here, although it usually isn't as big as some at Japanese market.

I like my Ajikiri for pan fish. Works great on bluegill

DwarvenChef said:

I like my Ajikiri for pan fish. Works great on bluegill

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And don't forget shaving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9ymiBnytM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

phan1 said:

That's what I'm saying man! You got a Koshi yanagi already, so why would I recommend a mioroshi for? But of course it's your decision and there are lots of credible people on these boards that will give you differing opinions. It's no different from getting a 2nd opinion from a different doctor. But there are some really hard boned fish like snapper that would benefit from a deba, a knife that is nearly twice the weight of a mioroshi. That's a big difference, so while I can't guarantee you which one is right for you, I can sure as hell guarantee that you would prefer one over the other. And considering the price of such knives, this becomes a pretty big decision. Big enough to drive on down to JKI and see for yourself. And you don't have to be a serious sushi guy to have a well rounded set of knives

As for serious sushi guys vs kitchen guys, I've already gone over the distinction. One uses usuba, deba, and yanagi. The other has a wierd collection of yo-debas, kiritsukes, petty-sized debas, sujihikis, and whatever other cool looking gizmos knife makers are coming up with.

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I thought you were referring to guys working in the same restaurant. My bad.

brainsausage said:

I thought you were referring to guys working in the same restaurant. My bad.

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No I think what he is saying is Iron chef Morimoto and Iron chef Sakai are not serious sushi guys because they use sujihikis. We must warn Japan if it isn't too late so their national sushi treasure Sukiyabashi Jiro doesn't touch anything but usuba,deba, or yanagi and becomes relegated as just a kitchen guy.:scratchhead::scared4:

Deckhand said:

And don't forget shaving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_9ymiBnytM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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LOL thats my Takeda ajikiri

I was refering to my Watanabe single bevel ajikiri

Glad you saw that. I couldn't resist. It's a classic

Deckhand said:

No I think what he is saying is Iron chef Morimoto and Iron chef Sakai are not serious sushi guys because they use sujihikis. We must warn Japan if it isn't too late so their national sushi treasure Sukiyabashi Jiro doesn't touch anything but usuba,deba, or yanagi and becomes relegated as just a kitchen guy.:scratchhead::scared4:

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See, my first response(in my head that is) was- is he referring to the prep crews versus the line in sushi restaurants? Then I thought maybe he means yakitori joints (or ramen, or whatever else) versus sushi joints? And then I thought: most of these knives are based on years of very extensive experience with very specific foods. Do you mean to tell me that no 'real' sushi chefs use takobiki's? They're just made as an item of curiousity for gullible westerners? I can understand the concept of mastering the basics on certain knives. But why are there so many of these very specialized knives out there? Because they are useful would be my guess. I dunno. I'm just an uneducated gaijin...