J-Nat Club

[TaJ]

Well, i guess this beer i've had made me put the universe in the stone

And yes, i'm happy about the stone. I would have flattened the sides anyway i guess, since i like how that looks on another stone in this very thread. Oh and the stone works very nice, i forgot to mention. Used it once before i went to re-finish it. Used it to finish a stainless Santoku which i first sharpened with JNS 300, 800, 6000. It took a few strokes where i thought not much happens but then the swarf and some mud appeared and it polished it nicely.

The brush is Vileda Glitzi Plus: http://international.vileda.com/com/...?hotspot_id=26

The coarse scrubbing side seems to be filled with hard crystals. Yes, it did remove the old laquer in about 90% of the bottom. Where i left it on is where there are deeper indents as seen in the picture where it's still yellow/brown.

[Andrey V]

Yep, these ancient stains, which looked like they were even older, like from a Japanese owner some decades ago, are gone. The bottom just looks this way, i just scrubbed it with a harsh scrubbing sponge, no Atoma. And yes, the holes are clearly visible.

The stone is much nicer in person, these tiny pictures cant show that. The different colours with the different coloured renge and inclusions look a bit like pictures of the universe with some nebula and stars shining through. The longer you look the nicer it becomes. You begin to think it's three dimensional.

One of the next days i'll try to laquer it.

Great, and congratulations!
Very nice brick of joy! It will last a life. Such a stone in such a size is hard to come by nowadays... And it costs a fortune..a full 24 size! Great one, glad for you.
You see, the real situation can be different for you and elsewhere: your situation brought some new experience. But again, what a nice brick! The next step will be to jump off the synthetics completely !!

[TaJ]

Yes, i'd like to use more naturals. I just don't know yet what good coarser stones there are. Aoto maybe, but proven good ones and Hakka for one step coarser i guess.

[Andrey V]

Yes, i'd like to use more naturals. I just don't know yet what good coarser stones there are. Aoto maybe, but proven good ones and Hakka for one step coarser i guess.

You know, a good Black Tsushima Nagura + an Aoto ( the hard one from JNS) is a very good solution!
Not so expensive, work good, both work good, really. The Tsushima is huge! Full size, very homogen, cuts quick!
Recommended!

[vinster]

You know, a good Black Tsushima Nagura + an Aoto ( the hard one from JNS) is a very good solution!
Not so expensive, work good, both work good, really. The Tsushima is huge! Full size, very homogen, cuts quick!
Recommended!

The Tsushima works alright, but if my stone is any indication, it's a fairly high grit stone. My specimen isn't particularly fast either. It might be useful for removing the scratches from a coarser stone, but you'll want to use a coarser stone for any moderate or major work. The Ikarashi is a fairly common and consistent stone that works well enough. I think Maxim described it as being in the 1000-2000 grit range. You could probably go from that straight to a hakka.

[icanhaschzbrgr]

May I ask stupid question of why would you want natural coarse stone instead of synthetic? Just because it's natural and fits nicely into your collection of naturals?

I'm asking because I have a very pragmatic position regarding stones: they are just tools for keeping knives sharp. And from this point of view it seems quite strange to spend lots of cash on natural coarse stone that can't compete in price/effectiveness to synthetic stones.

Probably I'm missing something. For example there's a nice JNS 300 synthetic stone. What natural stone could compete with it? By competing I means it should remove steel in similar speed and should cost somewhere around 90$ (which is JNS 300 stone price at the moment).

Are there naturals that could compete with JNS 800 synthetic?

Feed me with some links please

[Andrey V]

The Tsushima works alright, but if my stone is any indication, it's a fairly high grit stone. My specimen isn't particularly fast either. It might be useful for removing the scratches from a coarser stone, but you'll want to use a coarser stone for any moderate or major work. The Ikarashi is a fairly common and consistent stone that works well enough. I think Maxim described it as being in the 1000-2000 grit range. You could probably go from that straight to a hakka.

The coarser stones are needed when the knives are really dull- i have a wide range of naturals ( starting from Amakusa) and really good synthetics. Why to allow the knives to get so dull the one can need the really coarse stone?? I possess and use a good variety of really great knives, they are never that dull, and i use them a lot!
So, actually, even a good Suita is more then enough, not to mention really good hard fine grit finishers.
That's easier to keep them razor-sharp ( IMHO) then to take off a lot of metals after..

[Andrey V]

May I ask stupid question of why would you want natural coarse stone instead of synthetic? Just because it's natural and fits nicely into your collection of naturals?

I'm asking because I have a very pragmatic position regarding stones: they are just tools for keeping knives sharp. And from this point of view it seems quite strange to spend lots of cash on natural coarse stone that can't compete in price/effectiveness to synthetic stones.

Probably I'm missing something. For example there's a nice JNS 300 synthetic stone. What natural stone could compete with it? By competing I means it should remove steel in similar speed and should cost somewhere around 90$ (which is JNS 300 stone price at the moment).

Are there naturals that could compete with JNS 800 synthetic?

Feed me with some links please

Nothing is wrong here: everybody can use all what he wants to use, sure. It depends really on what is sufficient for you. The Jnat story is often more like the " holy dance around the fire", then the real need for most users. One of the best grinders would be ( IMO, again), the coarse 500 Shapton glass stone, professional edition.
I do not understand all the coarse stones lower then 500! 280??150?? Why to buy then the good expensive knives? The synthetic whetstones are quick, if one needs just to have a sharp knife, it's more then enough. Same for higher grit stones, i mean synthetics. You just need something more delicate and different or you don't. I have used so many synthetics- i just don't like them anymore. The Jnats give completely different feelings, and the fingers get not so dirty as with all synthetics from the slurry.
And really, i get any of my knives sharp ( from all the carbons to high speed tool steel and powdered steel knives) even on Bunsui , Aoto or Tsushima. But i sharpen them on Suitas and Nakayamas, because i never allow them to get really dull! So, if you are happy with your synthetics, is great, if you like your Jnats, is great as well! You know, is has nothing to do just with "more or less effective" ( though i am already sure, that the coarser good synthetics are more efficient), it's really about the feeling and playing( big boys- big toys).
From this point of view a great expensive Nakayama Kiita is nothing in comparison to a bunch of synthetic whetstones, but if you arrive to feel and enjoy the good Nakayama, you'll never use any synthetic stone anymore.. It's the overconsumption, if you like. It can make you addictive.. But the men need their toys, why not? Good watches show the time not better, then a Swatch, i know it very good . But who told then the Swiss watch industry has to dissapear?? And the edge you get with a good Jnat is COMPLETELY different, i will not open the universe here, it's obvious. The question is, whether you need it or not.. To be sufficient is the happiness as well, really.

[TaJ]

Andrey, i can follow your reasoning on why to use natural stones pretty well.

About the Tsushima, do you mean this one?
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com...ushima-nagura/
It says it's about 5k-8k

The Aotos are listed as about 2k-5k. How do both of these compare to a Hakka Lv 2,5?

The Ikarashi looks tempting at about 1k-2k grit. It would seem with Ikarashi, Aoto, Tsushima, Hakka and a fine finisher (like for instance my Ohira Suita) one could do all whats needed on naturals, with the exception of repair work or when you really need to remove a lot of metal fast.

Are these the best options for that or are there better stones out there, which are just not available right now?

As for why i would go all naturals, mainly because i like to have more natural stones, nice ones, but then i don't want redundancy in a way that i have, for instance, 3 naturals which basically do the same (same fineness), but none in the lower grit ranges. Also, i want every natural stone i own to be a really nice specimen.

[vinster]

About the Tsushima, do you mean this one?
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com...ushima-nagura/
It says it's about 5k-8k

The Aotos are listed as about 2k-5k. How do both of these compare to a Hakka Lv 2,5?

The Ikarashi looks tempting at about 1k-2k grit. It would seem with Ikarashi, Aoto, Tsushima, Hakka and a fine finisher (like for instance my Ohira Suita) one could do all whats needed on naturals, with the exception of repair work or when you really need to remove a lot of metal fast.

There are lots of options out there. The challenge is that there could be a lot of variability even within the same mine. That's where having Maxim or another trusted vendor helps to test out the stones before you buy them.

Generally speaking, a hakka is going to be finer than a tsushima. I'd go with either an aoto or tsushima, but not both (unless you're just collecting, then why not buy it all! ). I've had trouble finding good clean/pure aoto. They always seem to have some rogue particles that scratch up my single bevels.

If you're looking for jnats to make a perfect kasumi finish, then the quality of your stones is much more important. If you're mostly looking for good stones to sharpen your blade edge, it's not as big a deal, and you may not need a full progression, depending on what kind of edge you're after.