07-01-2014, 09:36 PM
if you must go higher than 5k aoto (why???) get one of those small hakka's from maxim, they're the size of a wide men's wallet, plenty of surface area for kitchen knives. feedback on those are awesome, feels even better than aoto. it was too refined for my taste however. often times i only spend a short amount of time on aoto and the final edge is around 4k (5k if i double the time spent), perfect if you ask me.
07-02-2014, 05:14 PM
Agreed about these being similarly 'soft' (well, not 'soft' but not hard for sure). However, the normal Takashima and Hakka have been quite popular here, and are definitely easier to use, so a good general recommendation and I like mine too.
Originally Posted by Andrey V
Disagree on 'no one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher' though - I've tried a couple that have been 'softer' (say Lv 3.0 on the JNS scale) but left great fine finishes. Real finds, those stones, because it's a lot easier to get the hard fine ones.
Just checked - the 'large' on is normal-sized in width and length, which is good, but at 20mm still quite thin, which is why they're sold mounted. I don't like mounting my stones so much, and so would prefer a thicker one, say, 30mm at least; 40mm is good. Personal preference, but not big price differences between the thinner and thicker ones found elsewhere.
Originally Posted by CoqaVin
There you go, the word from a pro user. Finer finishes look great and are great to play around with, but aren't necessarily what you need in the kitchen - depending - and Panda doesn't go beyond the med stones. Stones like the normal Hakka and Takashima are not super-fine, however, so not too beyond the Panda-range if you do want finer.
Originally Posted by panda
07-03-2014, 08:44 AM
07-03-2014, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=Andrey V;306441]To be clear: discussing all the numerous Jnats we do not say it's the best way for a pro- use. Inside the kitchen on a line you have to have more long lasting edge( good retention) with a good " toothy" bite rather then a super fine beautiful worked out edge with cuts like a lazer but isn't able to pass through the real heavy task. The Aoto is considered to be a finisher for the kitchen knife, so any good finisher with higher grit is welcome after it, if you really care ( i do not use the word " need" here, because we all think we need more then nessesary
Thinking about not cheep by far knives we start to play with same not cheep stones, this is a pure " overconsumption", it has some reason, but more: " little child- small toys, bigger child- bigger toys"
I hear ya, I am a professional, but I feel like I can go one more step up (personal preference) after the Aoto not super high maybe just 8-10k?
07-03-2014, 11:45 AM
Do you use high grit synthetic stones normally?
Originally Posted by CoqaVin
Because I bought my first JNat - a Hakka - for the same reasons you're looking for. I didn't like the results I had gotten with higher grit synthetics. They felt too slippery and didn't last long, and I was hoping that it'd be toothier and more durable.
It's not. It's a fun stone to use but it is still overkill, especially on poly-boards. So unless you actually like using high grit edges normally, I would say save your money and either invest in another (slightly more refined) medium grit stone or, if you don't own one, buy a nice high grit synthetic at a fraction of the price.
Naturals are fun but it's easy to fall down that rabbit hole. No matter how many expensive, beautiful stones you sharpen on in a progression, a properly thinned knife, sharpened with good technique on medium grit stones (clean, crisp edges) is always going to outperform in a professional setting. I like to play around with my natural stones but for work I always fall back on my faster, more aggressive synthetic stones. Just my two cents.
07-03-2014, 11:51 AM
no synthetic ever, only nats,
07-03-2014, 12:04 PM
I respect your preferences, but have you ever sharpened on a high grit (8-10k) stone???
07-03-2014, 12:04 PM
yes I have, but not very good ones
07-03-2014, 12:07 PM
I'd agree with a lot of what you've said here. If I were in a pro kitchen (again) I'd go for speed, and maybe the only natural I'd like to have (though would seem too luxurious in ways) would be a fast suita, depending on the knife and task. Definitely, the main thing would be to get more toothy durable edges. And yes, polyboards would be an enemy.
Originally Posted by JDA_NC
Not sure about the particular Hakka you used, but I've tried 3 of them and they're all different and so it's hard to generalise about one stone. It might have been that the one you got was too fine for your tastes and/or somehow didn't suit your knives. Hard to say.
About the jnat 'rabbit hole' - that can be true, as they can cost and certainly do when we don't have direct contact to Japan and buy them 2nd hand. That said, you can spend too much there too.
The main thing with naturals is finishing stones, which are what you hear most discussion about. However, if you like to finish with lower-grit (med) stones you can use naturals too; you can even use coarse naturals. (I do all this.) Med naturals are cheaper, generally, and are still interesting and, though often not as aggressive or fast as synthetics, good ones feel better and can leave a nicer finish at med-grit, and they also don't gum up like the synths and so, in a way, can be quicker too, in addition to not requiring soaking.
07-03-2014, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Asteger
I'm not trying to start a synthetic vs natural argument. I understand completely why people use them and enjoy doing so.
On the same hand, I would never bring a Shig, Kato or high end custom knife to work either. It's not practical -- for me -- but that doesn't mean I don't see why people should or would own them. My main concern is speed and results. So I want something that I don't have to baby or fret about in a tight, high-volume environment. I want my focus to be on getting work done, not whether or not my knives are safe & pristine.
And money is one issue. Especially considering as a cook we make much, much less than most so our finances are tight. But the other thing is, like you said, there is so much variety in naturals that it's easy to fall into the school of thinking "well, if I had X stone, my edges are going to be much, much better". I was merely trying to warn him that a higher grit (or nicer stone) != a sharper knife. Especially in a professional setting.