Dispelling Myths

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JBroida

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There are a lot of things i hear on a daily basis from my customers or read online and every once in a while, i come across commonly misunderstood things or myths relating to japanese knives. I thought i'd start a thread where i can post things like that when i remember (or when someone asks me about them). If you have something to add, please feel free (just do a little fact checking first ;) )...

so here we go...

Myth- Japanese single bevel knives have hollow ground edges because they are ground on big round wheels.

Truth- While the rough grinding is done on the large grinding wheels, much of the sharpening and finish sharpening is done on flat surfaces (like the waterwheel i have in my shop and also normal waterstones like you and i sharpen on). This doesnt mean that there cant be high and low spots. They can occur just the same (as they do on belt grinders with flat platens as well). No knives that i can think of off the top of my head are finished on the large wheels people always see in knife making videos. In fact, more often than not, knives are given convexed (or hamaguri) edges from the factory.

Myth- Japanese Single bevel knives need to have the bevels flattened and this is the way things are done in Japan.

Truth- ALL single bevel knives from japan (*that i know of or have seen),even cheap ones, have hamaguri edges. This doesnt mean that its always well done, and often times cheaper knives have poorly done ones. Even usuba and yanagiba. Its not just something done to strengthen an edge, but its also part of the way the knife interacts with food and food release. This is THE recommended way of sharpening single bevel knives by every japanese sharpening professional and/or knife maker that i have met. Flat ground bevels can sometimes be recommended to chefs to help keep things simple in their sharpening, but this is done with the understanding that they are sacrificing some of the performance aspects we look for from single bevel knives.

Myth (or misunderstanding or just cultural difference)- Microbevels are bad for your knife and an unnecessary sacrifice.

My opinion (cant really say truth on this one... its kind of subjective)- Americans (and many other western based cultures) tend to look for the maximum in things. Maximum sharpness, most acute angle a knife can hold, highest hrc, etc. However, you will see many chefs in Japan (the vast majority) use microbevels (koba) on their knives. They understand the small sacrifice in maximum potential sharpness is easily made up for by the increase in edge retention, increase in chip resistance, and ease in touching up the knife during a shift. This stands true for pretty much all single bevel knives i can think of- Usuba, Yanagiba, Deba, kiritsuke, etc. A lot of people seem to think this is just something for debas, but as it turns out its even more important on knives like usuba and yanagiba. Just remember, when you put on a microbevel, use light pressure and make sure to remove the burr.

What microbevels do is remove the very thin and brittle edge of the edge. This is one technique that can be used to get rid of wire edges.

Anyways, thats all for now. I'll probably add more later.
 
Thanks for posting this Jon, I for one am learning a lot from this, please keep it up! :doublethumbsup:
 
Thank you for the myth buster post.

It would be helpful to have clarification of the purposes of traditional Japanese, especially the hybrid ones, such as a Mioroshi Deba, Kiritsuke. Also the Usuba is misunderstood.

Thanks,

Jay
 
Myth- Japanese single bevel knives have hollow ground edges because they are ground on big round wheels.

Truth- While the rough grinding is done on the large grinding wheels, much of the sharpening and finish sharpening is done on flat surfaces (like the waterwheel i have in my shop and also normal waterstones like you and i sharpen on). This doesnt mean that there cant be high and low spots. They can occur just the same (as they do on belt grinders with flat platens as well). No knives that i can think of off the top of my head are finished on the large wheels people always see in knife making videos. In fact, more often than not, knives are given convexed (or hamaguri) edges from the factory.

How is the hollow ground side made?

Cheers,

Jack
 
the hollow ground side is cut in on that big wheel and cleaned up with a series of other wheels and buffers (and sometimes by hand as well). izuka-san also uses a sen to do the hollow ground side.

I guess i should have been more specific in referring to the front bevel versus the ura (back side)
 
Myth/Misunderstanding- The ever-fabled single bevel gyuto (with the exception of HHH's most recent one). People come to me all the time asking for a single bevel gyuto, sujihiki, etc. They think this will cut better, faster, easier, etc. than what they have.

Truth- People dont make these in Japan. They sometimes make extremely asymmetrical gyutos, sujis, etc., but not single bevel ones. They dont have hollow ground backs or other characteristics of true single bevel knives. Moreover, sharpening a gyuto as if it were a single bevel knife is rarely a good idea. I've been there and done that (as have many of us). The knives cut great, but they can steer horribly and the edges become fragile and brittle. Sticking to something a little less extreme in most cases will be much better (and in many cases is just flat out necessary).

Myth- Kiritsuke is the all-purpose knife of a Japanese kitchen

Truth- Kiritsuke is a hybrid blade... it is intended to combine the functionality of a yanagiba (for slicing) and an usuba (for veggies). It is not to be used as a deba (to fillet fish). Likewise, mioroshi is a combination of deba (for filleting fish) and yanagiba (for slicing). It is not to be used as a gyuto or usuba. People pick knives like these because they can carry/use one knife instead of two. However, they realize that while these knives can do both tasks, they wont be as good at either as the knife that should be doing the job (deba for filleting fish, yanagiba for slicing fish, etc.). Moreover, kiritsuke is NOT a gyuto (or a version of a single bevel gyuto). There are many kiritsuke-shaped gyutos out there now days, but dont confuse "kiritsuke-shaped" with kiritsuke.

Myth- Deba is great for breaking down chicken

Truth- Deba is not at all ideal for this, nor is this the intended purpose of deba. The japanese have knives for breaking down chicken- Honesuki and Garasuki. Deba is a fish filleting knife. That is what it is made to do and that is what it does best. Between all of the professional sharpeners on here, i'm sure there are more than a few stories of debas that needed fixing because someone decided it would be a good idea to split a chicken in 2 with one.
 
Great information, Jon. Thanks for these posts.
 
Jon - doesn't "kiritsuke" really just refer to the shape of the tip of the knife, like a "tanto" tipped knife (but angled back instead of forwards)? So anything (including a pocket knife) with that particular shape is a "kiritsuke?"
 
not when it comes to kitchen knives (though there may be some maker out there that uses it in a way different from what i am saying here... just havent met that person in japan yet). Based on the kanji 切付, one might guess that is refers to 切付ける as in a verb of cutting, but really it just refers to this specific knife. It has nothing to do with the tip shape. Thats why when people do something in that shape, they call it "kiritsuke-shaped" (or should call it such at least).
 
Jon - doesn't "kiritsuke" really just refer to the shape of the tip of the knife, like a "tanto" tipped knife (but angled back instead of forwards)? So anything (including a pocket knife) with that particular shape is a "kiritsuke?"

I'm guessing that this sometimes gets the same treatment as damascus in western knife maker's terminologies
 
I understand why you say it isn't really a good idea to sharpen knives totally asymmetrically, but one instance where I think it is a great idea is if you are a lefty and you're using a righty knife (so basically all of them). I have noticed food release on basically all of my knives improve massively when sharpening them with very strong asymmetry
 
Myth: The Japanese knife gods will strike you dead if you use a knife for something other than it's designed purpose.
 
Myth: You have to apprentice for at least 400 years to be respected sharpener
 
Salty, good to hear but I'm still afraid to use my deba for anything else other than butchering whole fish, as a result the knife has remained unused even once. Its been sitting on my wall looking bad ass but un touched. I must be loosing perspective, there is nothing else I can think of that I have ever bought that cost $300 that I haven't even used once. heck, even my 12" Falk saute pan has been used a few times.
 
I use my small 150mm Deba for chickens too :newhere:
 
Jon, I cannot imagine the patience it takes to not just put a giant sign in your store telling people that a Deba is not for splitting chickens.

BTW, in English-speaking knife circles, a Kiritsuke-style-tip is often referred to as "reverse tanto". Still inaccurate and half-Japanese, but there should be a word for Kiritsuke-Style-Tip.
 
Myth: The Japanese knife gods will strike you dead if you use a knife for something other than it's designed purpose.

lol... never said you cant do things with the knives they arent intended for... just stating that thats not what deba is designed to do, so if you pick one up and think you can hack a chicken in 2 with one because its a really thick blade, dont be surprised if there are some chips in the blade. I know people who use deba for chicken and done have problems. I also know that sometimes people gear their choice of steel/heat treatment so the deba will be tougher and can handle this kind of task better. Anyways, honesuki and garasuki are still better for the task. But at the end of the day, they are your knives and you can do with them as you please. That doesnt mean that deciding to use usuba to take the head off a 100lb tuna is a good idea, but feel free ;)
 
lol... never said you cant do things with the knives they arent intended for... just stating that thats not what deba is designed to do, so if you pick one up and think you can hack a chicken in 2 with one because its a really thick blade, dont be surprised if there are some chips in the blade. I know people who use deba for chicken and done have problems. I also know that sometimes people gear their choice of steel/heat treatment so the deba will be tougher and can handle this kind of task better. Anyways, honesuki and garasuki are still better for the task. But at the end of the day, they are your knives and you can do with them as you please. That doesnt mean that deciding to use usuba to take the head off a 100lb tuna is a good idea, but feel free ;)

:plus1:
 
I see it as a letter of the law vs. spirit of the law situation. A deba was not designed for breaking down chicken, but it takes off chicken breast and goes through leg joints as easily as it fillets tai and cuts between fish vertebrae. Similarly a yanagiba was never designed for skinning pork belly or portioning tenderloin, but it performs those tasks with aplomb. I would never split a chicken carcass with a deba, nor would I suggest a deba as first choice for breaking down chicken, but used within its parameters, it does the job extremely well.
 
Not exactly a myth, but:

As I understand it, a kasumi finish is the result of grinding through a rough forged finish, so a kurouchi blade will be black at the top, gray kasumi towards the middle, and naked steel towards the edge--as in this thread that Jon contributed to:

kurouchi


What I don't understand is faux kasumi finishes. At 2:25 in this video a guy is using a jig to apply a faux kasumi finish. Is this the way it's usually done? Is he using a stone or something else?

[video=youtube;JXWrnVvqmsQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXWrnVvqmsQ[/video]
 
I'll let Jon address the question, since it is his thread. But I really want one of those knife-pinning arms.
 
Not exactly a myth, but:

As I understand it, a kasumi finish is the result of grinding through a rough forged finish, so a kurouchi blade will be black at the top, gray kasumi towards the middle, and naked steel towards the edge--as in this thread that Jon contributed to:

kurouchi


What I don't understand is faux kasumi finishes. At 2:25 in this video a guy is using a jig to apply a faux kasumi finish. Is this the way it's usually done? Is he using a stone or something else?

[video=youtube;JXWrnVvqmsQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXWrnVvqmsQ[/video]

Kasumi just means mist. Kasumi finishes are applied in a number of ways. I would not call what you saw there a faux kasumi finish. Really, nothing we see is a faux kasumi finish. What might be more appropriate is to refer to faux kasumi finish for cheap kurouchi double bevel knives, where they have the kasumi look, but where the bevels dont follow where the kasumi finish.

Kasumi finish does not necessarily mean the knife has been finished on natural stones (at least in the traditional methods of sharpening we often do).

Moreover, the term kasumi (and hon-kasumi) have really become marketing terms more than anything else. Retailers use these terms to indicate the quality level of the blade (i.e. the relative skill of the blacksmith and sharpener, the amount of time the sharpener spends making the knife perfect, etc.). Kasumi are generally lower quality with regard to these areas when compared to hon-kasumi.

With regard to what you see in the video, that is one common way of finishing a bevel. You may also see people doing this in a more traditional sharpening method on stone or applying the look with a sand blaster. They would all be kasumi (as they look misty).
 
lol... never said you cant do things with the knives they arent intended for... just stating that thats not what deba is designed to do, so if you pick one up and think you can hack a chicken in 2 with one because its a really thick blade, dont be surprised if there are some chips in the blade. I know people who use deba for chicken and done have problems. I also know that sometimes people gear their choice of steel/heat treatment so the deba will be tougher and can handle this kind of task better. Anyways, honesuki and garasuki are still better for the task. But at the end of the day, they are your knives and you can do with them as you please. That doesnt mean that deciding to use usuba to take the head off a 100lb tuna is a good idea, but feel free ;)

Great thread.

I eat chicken and fish; I break down whole chicken and fish. If I thought it was ok to use one knife for both tasks, I would have one knife for them. Therefore, I like this rule, one knife for fish, another for chicken, because it allows me to get ANOTHER KNIFE. More rules, more knives.

Rationalizatingly yours,

Jack
 
I understand why you say it isn't really a good idea to sharpen knives totally asymmetrically, but one instance where I think it is a great idea is if you are a lefty and you're using a righty knife (so basically all of them). I have noticed food release on basically all of my knives improve massively when sharpening them with very strong asymmetry

converting a knife from righty to lefty can be simple or complex depending on the grind of the sides of the knife. I see where you are going here and it makes sense to an extent. Just make sure you're not going too extreme with clad blades and if the edge starts to get very thin, maybe use a microbevel, a compound bevel, or a hamaguri edge. FWIW, huge flat grinds from "single-bevel-style-sharpening" on double bevel knives arent the best for food release, so a slight hamaguri edge is a smarter way to go for food release.
 
....You may also see people doing this in a more traditional sharpening method on stone or applying the look with a sand blaster. They would all be kasumi (as they look misty).

A lot of kasumi finishes look like they're sandblasted, but this is the first time I've had any evidence that they actually are.
 
Myth- Kitchen Knives made by swordsmiths

Truth- There are a few (and i mean VERY few) exceptions to what i am about to say, and even with those knives, they are not production knives (honestly, more often that not they are gifts from that craftsmen to a friend). Sword making is a very competitive field. Very few people are successful within this field in japan. With the Meiji restoration (1868), making swords became tightly controlled and is pretty much just an artistic traditional craft now. All but the most successful and talented sword making families/companies stopped making swords. Some moved into other fields, including making tools and knives. For generations now, families that have their roots in sword making have not made swords.

The construction of philosophy behind swords and knives are very different as well. For example, swords are designed to be able to cut through people and armor whereas knives are designed to cut precisely though foods and meats of much softer composition (and with less bone and armor in the way ;) ). Swords have soft steel in the core (for toughness and to resist chipping and breaking) and harder steel on the outside (for stability and strength). Their edges are constructed in a way so as to be able to cut through someone and still be ok to cut again. Kitchen knives are designed with hard cutting edges (for both honyaki and awase- or clad- knives). They also have softer steel on the outside (or at the spine in the case of honyaki blades). They are designed to cut precisely, but not to be able to withstand the same kind of abuse swords can take.

In my conversations with a sword smith (who happens to be a family friend and a provincial treasure), he always mentions how different swords and kitchen knives are (as i often try to pick his brain for knowledge in forging and sharpening).

So, in conclusion- making good swords ≠ making good knives or visa versa. Making good knives = making good knives and making good swords = making good swords. :pirate1: This is probably oversimplified, and i'm sure there are one or two guys out there who make great swords and great knives, so take this for what its worth.

Oh... and just because a blade has damascus cladding doesnt make it the same as katana. :moonwalk:
 
A lot of kasumi finishes look like they're sandblasted, but this is the first time I've had any evidence that they actually are.

you might be surprised at some that look sand blasted and are not or visa versa. FYI, sand blasting is more common on cheaper blades but sometimes can be used on more expensive blades. People like pretty things, no?

Also, there are still a lot of craftsmen out there using more traditional methods, so dont be disheartened.
 
you might be surprised at some that look sand blasted and are not or visa versa. FYI, sand blasting is more common on cheaper blades but sometimes can be used on more expensive blades. People like pretty things, no?

Also, there are still a lot of craftsmen out there using more traditional methods, so dont be disheartened.

Far from disheartened, I'm just trying to figure out which Harbor Freight sandblaster would have the horsepower to do a kasumi finish. :laugh:

Seriously, though, do you have any sources for that blade clamp/polishing jig/pinning arm in the video?
 
most craftsmen make most if not all of their own tools

also, just sandblasting is not enough... there is much more prep work that goes into the knife before that point. I feel very comfortable saying its not the easiest way to get a nice kasumi finish.
 
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