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  1. #11
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew H View Post
    Edipis: "Very safe for the vast majority of people" isn't a particularly comforting phrase.
    unfortunately, it's as comforting as reality gets.

  2. #12
    Senior Member mpukas's Avatar
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    Take the red pill and go down the rabbit hole.



    There's a lot of conspiracy stuff about flouride (such as mind control in Russia), but there are also some very real facts, as Dave has found out. Bottom line is there is no need for flouride to be in our drinking water. It's an old, out of date, good-ol'-politcian idea that dates back to a time when governments were trying to figure out what was "best" for the poeple, but they really didn't know what they were - or are - doing.
    Shibui - simplicity devoid of unnecessary elements

  3. #13
    The alleles created by mutation may be beneficial

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdipisReks View Post
    unfortunately, it's as comforting as reality gets.
    Doesn't that indicate a problem? I think you just agreed with me. If reality isn't comforting, let's change it.

  4. #14

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    I'd rather have water in my water. Tap water tastes like crap. I am raising my children to know good food, because my desire for quality of taste has led me to eat a healthful diet of basic, nourishing things.

    I drank flouridated tap water my entire childhood, drank about a quart of low-quality Borden milk a day as a kid, brush twice daily, listerine before bed, don't eat a lot of junk foods, and have about $15k in dental work I need done. So I have a lot of respect left for the ADA's advice.

    Ultimately, there is no need for Flouride in my water, because when I drink water, it is because I am thirsty. I do not like to multi-task.

  5. #15
    Senior Member EdipisReks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew H View Post
    Doesn't that indicate a problem? I think you just agreed with me. If reality isn't comforting, let's change it.
    no, i didn't agree with you. to quote the master, "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  6. #16
    Senior Member cwrightthruya's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I should get involved in this discussion.
    But, Edipis is correct. The reality of not only medicine, but of life, is there is always inherent risk. I assure you, that if you knew the true risks of everything in the medical field, you would never visit a doctor. I would rather have bypass surgery on my kitchen table than in an OR, as it is far cleaner, with fewer chemical resistant bacteria. Why do you think we have you sign consent forms stating that you won't hold us responsible for the inherent risks associated with your procedures.There is even risk associated with taking vitamins, antibiotics, and even seeing a phlebotomist.

    But here is the key...

    The benefits outweigh the risks almost always. Those who are in authority do not have the pleasure of helping or maintaining the health of every person on an individual basis, as it is simply not feasible. So, instead they make broad judgments based on what research findings have shown, that they feel will benefit most people, most of the time, while offering the least risk, again most of the time.

    I am not uplifting this policy, as it is obviously flawed, but it is the reality of how decisions are made.

    Regards,
    Chris
    At Death's Door You Only Have 2 choices. Die Happy or Die Regretfully.
    Knowing this...........Choose 1 and Live!!!!!!!!!

  7. #17
    The alleles created by mutation may be beneficial

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    I'm not saying that we need to switch to a method that is risk free, but rather try to make the water we drink have less risk. Look at some countries in Europe; France, Norway and Germany do not fluoridate their water at all, England only fluoridates 10% of their supply.
    Forty percent of kids age 12-15 have dental fluorosis in America (source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db53.pdf). That's a problem. There's a reason why the EPA and the department of HHS want to reduce the concentration of fluoride in water to 0.7mg/L.

  8. #18
    Senior Member cwrightthruya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew H View Post
    Water fluoridation does decrease cavities in children (I forget the exact number, but it's not negligible), but the amount that is currently allowed to be in drinking water is too high. Right now fluoride is allowed to be at 4mg/L in the United States while the WHO recommends 1.5mg/L: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_...water_full.pdf

    Edipis: "Very safe for the vast majority of people" isn't a particularly comforting phrase. I'd go with what the WHO recommends.

    Fluoridation is the act of artificially adding fluoride to a substance, whether drinking water, food, or etc. You are correct about he WHO recommending 1.5mg/L, but it is important to understand why these numbers are in place. This is exactly what I was discussing in my previous post. The WHO (WORLD is the key word), makes recommendations based on what they feel are the benefits and risks across the world. The EPA in this case is a better indicator for the US. Currently, the EPA has 2 guidelines for water fluoridation
    1) 4 mg/L, which is the enforceable EPA MCLG standard for serious health effects. Meaning that no serious health effects are likely to occur at said levels.
    2) 2mg/L MCLG standard, which is the secondary and not enforceable fluoridation limit. Past this level there is some occurence of "cosmetic" dental fluorosis.

    The second standard, as well as the WHO standard, is based on the fact that there are natural sources of fluoride that occur, which are not included in this fluoridation limit. So, when considering geographical regions where large amounts of granite and gneiss appear, causing increased natural fluoride "contamination", it is safer for an organization such as the WHO to recommend a lower MCLG. In the US, this happens quite a lot in California and the Great Lakes area. Children living in these areas are most likely to suffer from dental fluorosis.

    My point here is that we should all be careful with numbers and statistics.....

    Regards,
    Chris
    At Death's Door You Only Have 2 choices. Die Happy or Die Regretfully.
    Knowing this...........Choose 1 and Live!!!!!!!!!

  9. #19
    Senior Member cwrightthruya's Avatar
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    By the way Dave, I really hate that happened to your daughter. Were you living in California or New York at the time?
    At Death's Door You Only Have 2 choices. Die Happy or Die Regretfully.
    Knowing this...........Choose 1 and Live!!!!!!!!!

  10. #20
    Das HandleMeister apicius9's Avatar
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    +1 to both of Chris's posts. From a public health perspective, fluouridized water is considered one of the major successes in public health because the overall benefits by far outweigh any negative consequences. And in Hawaii they also tried to get it through several times but the local government is just too stubborn Unfortunately, relying on individuals to do everything that would be good prevention strategies only works in a few selected areas - and dental health is not one of them.

    Stefan

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