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  1. #41
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    You are deffinately right, in my opinion Lucretia. I don't think it was necessarily right for wolves to be exterminated in the first place. But it was, again in my opinion worse to spend 13 million per wolf to reintroduce them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucretia View Post
    Sounds like there are valid reasons for managing the wolf packs in your area. The attitude of "it's a (wolf/gator/panther/snake/etc) KILL IT" without any thought behind it gets on my nerves. Even worse are the folks who feed the animals and get them used to people--they're the ones who really need a kick in the rump.

  2. #42
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    Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucretia View Post
    A different opinion here. WHY is the predator at your home? Have you created an environment attractive to the predator--garbage they can get into, tasty small pets left outside, etc? If you live in an area with a large population of predators, if you don't get rid of what's attracting them, even if you "remove" one, you'll just have another one moving in. Are they coming in on a seasonal basis or just moving through? When we lived in Florida, we had a fancified retention pond at the front of the neighborhood. Every breeding season when the alligators started getting frisky and moving around, we'd end up with a gator in the pond. If you left them alone, they'd stay for several days and move on. This would happen a few times every breeding season. No real reason to kill or remove them--they'd move on soon and the neighborhood would post a sign telling people to watch out for the gator.

    Now when you walk into a bathroom at work at o-dark-thirty and see this, there's more of a reason to take action:

    Live and let Live???............So if a homeless knifemaker moved into your garage you would not remove him because you will just have another one move in,even if it's not breeding season

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burke View Post
    But it was, again in my opinion worse to spend 13 million per wolf to reintroduce them.
    Bill, could you please tell me on what you are basing this figure...link or something?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Johnny.B.Good's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eshua View Post
    Working with former ranchers, the credibility of financial and human threat isn't as high as it is with mountain lions, but its not nothing either.
    If the article I just read is to be believed, there have only been (2) documented cases of wild wolves killing a human being in North America (as opposed to the 32,885 motor vehicle deaths in the U.S. in 2010 alone).

    I'm in favor of letting the wolves be, whenever and wherever it's possible to do so.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lucretia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRLOVER View Post
    Live and let Live???............So if a homeless knifemaker moved into your garage you would not remove him because you will just have another one move in,even if it's not breeding season
    Haven't had any homeless knifemakers move in. If I liked their wife knives, they might get to stay for a while. I tend to have more tolerance for critters than people, tho. We often had snakes move in when we lived in Florida. Had a big arse indigo snake (probably 6+) get in the garage one time--came pulling up in the driveway, hit the opener, and there he was right in my parking spot. Ended up playing "Lucretia chases the snake around the garage with a broom"--those suckers are HEAVY when you're trying to scoot them out from under a workbench. They get pretty cranky, too.

    Back to the wolves...I remember several occasions where deer herds had become too large to be healthy and wildlife management suggested hunts or merely shooting some of the animals. Seems like there was also some concern about them spreading anthrax. Wasn't reducing herd size part of the logic behind introducing wolves?

    Mr. Gator ended up with his jaws taped up with duct tape and tied up before he was hauled away with a fork lift. If you can't fix it with duct tape, it ain't broken.
    Now is not the time to bother me. And it's always now. Wiley Miller

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.
    Eric I used to live in lemhi county Idaho one of the places where wolves were first reintroduced. The elk herd in the area was approximately 45,000 strong. Within three months of reintroduction a rancher who lived in a small comunity 18 miles from Salmon killed a wolf eating one of his cows along the salmon river in sight of state highway 93. I Also have a high school class mate whos family has raised cows less than five miles from the city center of Salmon Idaho for the last 90 years. last year between the two families they lost 32 cows while on their summer range. This compared to less than one a year between the two families before the reintroduction of the wolves. you stated that ranchers are reimbursed for wolf depredation on livestock which is true but there has to be irrefutible proof that a wolf or wolves killed the animal and was not just eating one that was already dead. in the third year of reintroduction the national fish and wildlife service destroyed the phelan creek pack do to cattle predation. there were also at least five family dogs killed and eaten by wolves inside the Salmon city limits three years after reintroduction. my class mate is in constant contact with the USFWS concerning the wolves. the USFWS's answer to these problem wolves is extermination.

    I am not trying to start a argument here but these are all facts that I have from first hand knowledge. In addition My wife was county commissioner for lemhi county during the wolf reintroduction and we went to every public meeting and many private meetings before during and after the reintroduction. What you stated above sounds like the same story that was pushed on the public by the USFWS and other groups that has just not proven to be the case. I worked for the Id. dept of fish and game before and during reintroduction. one day prior to reintroduction the office recieved a call from a rancher in the leadore area stating that he had killed a wolf. he was assured that there where no wolves in Idaho at that time. After his insistance that it was a wolf and not a large coyote the rancher brought the "dog" into the office. a wildlife officer looked at it and then was going to issue a citation to the rancher for killing a threatened and endangered species. the rancher had recorded the phone call between himself and the officer where the officer assured the rancher that he could not have possibly killed a wolf because there were no wolves in Idaho so was able to avoid the ticket and prosecution.
    I do agrre with you that It is mans arrogance that has caused problems but this goes both ways. It is just as arrogant to reintroduce wolve as it was to exterminate them. As the above story, about the rancher shows there were already wolves in the area but they were shy and elusive and were very seldom seen or heard, when they were it was wrongly assumed that the person/persons reporting the wolf sighting were ignorant and did not knowing what they were talking about. The Canadian grey wolves that were reintroduced are quite a bit larger than the wolves that were historically in the area and also the wolves that where officially not there but apparently really were there. I don't support the Idea that wolves should be completly removed again but I also don't think that they should have been artificially reintroduced/forced on an unwilling population.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehunter View Post
    Bill, could you please tell me on what you are basing this figure...link or something?

    I just did a quick google search and found that the original cost was about one million dollars per wolf and there were 13 wolves reintroduced into lemhi county. so i was a little confused. I also found that the costs of managment for the first years was 8,400,000 per year. this is, as i said a quick google search and is probably not exact

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny.B.Good View Post
    If the article I just read is to be believed, there have only been (2) documented cases of wild wolves killing a human being in North America (as opposed to the 32,885 motor vehicle deaths in the U.S. in 2010 alone).

    I'm in favor of letting the wolves be, whenever and wherever it's possible to do so.
    I agree but one thing the documented wolf kills have happened since the introduction of the canadian grey wolf in 1995.

  10. #50
    Senior Member brainsausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Bill: sorry but I must disagree. In Idaho and elsewhere wolves are very unlikely to attack livestock and in fact the actual rate of predation is 0.01 percent or 1 in ten thousand. Much more livestock is lost to other predators as well as disease. Wolves belong in North America and the ecosystem evolved with them. They actually help maintain a healthy population of prey animals and the only reason the elk population is de clining since the introduction of wolves is because their populations were allowed to grow unchecked for so long without a natural predator. If left alone the predator prey population will reach a healthy sustainable balance and both will be healthier because of it. It is only human arrogance and ignorance to think that they know better than nature. Also lets be honest, it is the hunters of ungulates who want to maintain these unhealthy populations of elk etc. it is much better for the ecosystem to self regulate. Further livestock loses incurred by wolves are are paid for at full market value by funds established in each state as part of wolf reintroduction. In addition there are many effective non lethal ways to minimize wolf predation of livestock and often this is free to ranchers. Idaho has basically sanctioned year round hunting of wolves without responsible limits that if left unchecked will result in unsustainable levels. What a shame, in my opinion, if we allow the wolf to become extinct, again in USA.
    Not trying to fan the fire, but some credible links to those figures, as well as some posted by others, would lend some credence...

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