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  1. #11

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    Great post, Del. One carbide former that is not present in O1 or L6 but is in steels like W2 and some 1084 blends like the stuff that Aldo Bruno sells is vanadium. From what i have read and heard, it is in the same class as tungsten as far as forming the hard little carbides that we knife guys love and it also retards grain growth so your steel doesn't stat looking like is is made from beach sand until it gets a couple of hundred degrees hotter than say plain carbon steel or something like 5160.. The put a LOT of vanadium in some of the CPM steels and that is what makes them so wear resistant and also so hard to sharpen. I think that Crucible mixed about 1% niobium in the new S35VN and reduced the vanadium content from 4 to 3%. Supposedly that cures some of the brittleness issues that folks experienced with S30V. Cry Forge V has the carbon content of W2 or O1, 3 times the vanadium of W2 and about the same chromium as 5160. I ncontext to what Del is talking about, the problem with Cru Forge is that there isn't a nickel bearing steel that matches up perfectly with it like O1 does with ral L6 or 10xx or W1, W2 does with 15N20, so not many people have tried to make damascus with it. Another reason may be that with .50 chromium, the steel would etch more gray than black.

  2. #12
    Delbert Ealy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisedbybrocks View Post
    Very Interesting read. I've yet to lay my hands on any L6 over here, there is probably something similar in a different guise. Infact 15n20 has become near impossible to get. I get mine in the form of scrap bandsaws blades. There is a virtually identical steel called 75Ni8 which has become available. I'm waiting to hear back about its cousin from the same company which has 1.25%carbon to San Mai in my Razors. I mix 15n20 with en42J both of which are listed as Oil hardening steels. We call them oil hardening over here anyway, although I have tested them in water and it works.
    Atb
    Will
    http://www.damaszener.de/PDFs/klassen.pdf

    Will,
    The above link will lead you to some of the steel combinations a german friend of mine uses. The steel designations are listed on the right.
    It might give you some idea of alloys to look for on your side of the pond.


    Does 75ni8 contain any chromium?
    Thanks,
    Del

    Laminated metals specialist, Kitchen knife and gadget maker
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    "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"

  3. #13

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    Tons of great information there Del, thank you for taking the time to share it.

    I need some of your damascus! It sounds outstanding. O1 is my go to steel for many knives and L6 sounds like a steel I need to try.

  4. #14
    Delbert Ealy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ******* View Post
    Great post, Del. One carbide former that is not present in O1 or L6 but is in steels like W2 and some 1084 blends like the stuff that Aldo Bruno sells is vanadium. From what i have read and heard, it is in the same class as tungsten as far as forming the hard little carbides that we knife guys love and it also retards grain growth so your steel doesn't stat looking like is is made from beach sand until it gets a couple of hundred degrees hotter than say plain carbon steel or something like 5160.. The put a LOT of vanadium in some of the CPM steels and that is what makes them so wear resistant and also so hard to sharpen. I think that Crucible mixed about 1% niobium in the new S35VN and reduced the vanadium content from 4 to 3%. Supposedly that cures some of the brittleness issues that folks experienced with S30V. Cry Forge V has the carbon content of W2 or O1, 3 times the vanadium of W2 and about the same chromium as 5160. I ncontext to what Del is talking about, the problem with Cru Forge is that there isn't a nickel bearing steel that matches up perfectly with it like O1 does with ral L6 or 10xx or W1, W2 does with 15N20, so not many people have tried to make damascus with it. Another reason may be that with .50 chromium, the steel would etch more gray than black.

    JM,
    Some O-1 contains .2% vanadium, the same amount that is present in W-2. Vanadium does produce fine carbides, but the tungsten carbides are harder and more wear resistant.
    Grain growth is purely a function of temperature, as long as you don't overheat the steel you don't need to worry about grain size.(Here I am talking about grain size, not carbide size)
    .5% chromium is not enough to affect the color of the etching, both O-1 and L-6 have that amount, but it is the nickel in L-6 that makes it etch slower and a bit lighter.

    Laminated metals specialist, Kitchen knife and gadget maker
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    www.mokume-jewelry.net
    "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"

  5. #15

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    Hey Mr. Ealy,

    I just wanted to congratulate you on the excellent job you did putting some metallurgical concepts into layman terms. Kudos!

    -AJ

  6. #16
    Delbert Ealy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajhuff View Post
    Hey Mr. Ealy,

    I just wanted to congratulate you on the excellent job you did putting some metallurgical concepts into layman terms. Kudos!

    -AJ
    Thanks!

    Laminated metals specialist, Kitchen knife and gadget maker
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    "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"

  7. #17

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    Dell, I had been told that 5160 and 52100 tend to etch a bit more gray than say 1075 or 1084 with a good dose of manganese. I have some of that small 1 inch 1084 sotck that came from the Schrade liquidation. i haven't used it yet, but i am told that it gets pitch black, so I may save it up for special mosaic projects in the future. it doesn't have the .15-.20 vanadium that Aldo's bigger stuff has. As for tungsten, I had heard that too. Is the tungsten also what make O1 a bit red short?
    Quote Originally Posted by Delbert Ealy View Post
    JM,
    Some O-1 contains .2% vanadium, the same amount that is present in W-2. Vanadium does produce fine carbides, but the tungsten carbides are harder and more wear resistant.
    Grain growth is purely a function of temperature, as long as you don't overheat the steel you don't need to worry about grain size.(Here I am talking about grain size, not carbide size)
    .5% chromium is not enough to affect the color of the etching, both O-1 and L-6 have that amount, but it is the nickel in L-6 that makes it etch slower and a bit lighter.

  8. #18
    Delbert Ealy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ******* View Post
    Dell, I had been told that 5160 and 52100 tend to etch a bit more gray than say 1075 or 1084 with a good dose of manganese. I have some of that small 1 inch 1084 sotck that came from the Schrade liquidation. i haven't used it yet, but i am told that it gets pitch black, so I may save it up for special mosaic projects in the future. it doesn't have the .15-.20 vanadium that Aldo's bigger stuff has. As for tungsten, I had heard that too. Is the tungsten also what make O1 a bit red short?
    JM,
    It does have more to do with the maganese than any of the other factors, its why 1095 etches light and 1084 etches dark. 1084 has twice the manganese of 1095.
    The tungsten is a bit red short, it takes about 100 degrees off the top of the forging range.
    Del

    Laminated metals specialist, Kitchen knife and gadget maker
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    www.mokume-jewelry.net
    "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life"

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delbert Ealy View Post
    http://www.damaszener.de/PDFs/klassen.pdf

    Will,
    The above link will lead you to some of the steel combinations a german friend of mine uses. The steel designations are listed on the right.
    It might give you some idea of alloys to look for on your side of the pond.


    Does 75ni8 contain any chromium?
    Thanks,
    Del
    Thanks Del I'll check that out. I'm just about to try my first 75ni8, there is a group buy going on and they were being very mysterious about what it actually was for a while. But the numbers are almost identical to 15n20
    Chemical composition % of the ladle analysis of grade 75Ni8 (1.5634)

    C 0.72 - 0.78
    Si 0.15 - 0.35
    Mn 0.3 - 0.5
    Ni 1.8 - 2.1
    P max 0.025
    S max 0.025
    Cr max 0.15
    Mo max 0.1

  10. #20

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    A little thread necromancy here. I may have a possible answer for Will's old question. While I was in Belgium, I got to spend a day in my friend Claude Bouchonville's shop. He and a lot of the other guys over there are using C75Ni8 for the nickel bearing steel in their damascus. A lot of them get it from Achim Wirtz and they generally consider it to be pretty much a direct replacement for 15N20.

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