Wine...Where to Start?!

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I've always been pretty knowledgeable of the food world, with one exception: wine. I was in a wine store today talking to the clerk, and although he was helpful I found him to be stretching in some of my questions. One of the main questions I had for him was, at what price point do you find the rate of diminishing returns with wine? I understand a $500 wine will likely be much better than a $25 one. But is a $75 one much better than a $25 one? Putting country origin, styles, grapes, and such out of play, what are some fairly readily available wines do you suggest? Up to this point, i've been a drink what I like guy but I would like to spread my wings. Snobs are welcome!
 
the only way to become knowledgable about wine is to drink a lot of wine. a lot. a $500 bottle is not all that likely to be better than a $75, btw, at least when it comes to French wine. hype is a thing.
 
There are some wines that are CLEARLY in another class even to the uneducated pallet. Unfortunately, most of the time, they are in another price class. The trick is finding the really good ones that are still cheap. When people first rediscovered Malbecs, some of the really good Argentine ones could be had for $10 a bottle or less. Not so much now and I think that the quality has slipped a little since they got hot, much like the quality of some cigars slipped in the early to mid 90's when the demand for them exploded. With that said, with some careful shopping, $75 can get you a pretty damn good wine from places like California. it used to get you the second tier wines from French vineyards. like Forts de Latour which were damn fine, but I am not sure about that now, especially with what they are asking for the first growth stuff..
 
I would say that over $100 definitely has diminishing returns, but it probably starts well benenth that. One of the good things that came out of the recession was the way over the top wine snobbery that was going on changed into most people seeking better value as almost everyone dropped a price range or two. People that would drink $80-100 bottles on a regular basis lowered to $50, and so on. A lot more people looking for the good $10-25 bottles of wine. I normally stay in the $15-30 range, though I am very cyclical on how often I drink.
 
I will leave specific recommendations to others, I have been out of the wine game for too long. And, of course, there are no fixed rules. But I always refused to spend more than $100 for a single bottle of wine and only made very few exceptions to that - only one of which was worth it without any doubt (Chateau d'Yquem 1990 half bottle). You can clearly find excellent wines in the $20-30 range, beyond that, enjoyment clearly correlates with experience IMHO. You will also develop preferences with experience. This can become a whole new obsession, so be careful ;) I always found it most helpful to focus on one area for a while and drink a range of different ones, like Spanish reds in a certain price range from different regions or different grapes from the same region etc. At least I learned that way what my general preferences are. A $500 burgundy is wasted on me, I just don't understand or like pinots enough.

To come back to the ROI, I always found the curve to flatten out considerably before I got to $100. Of course, most Bordeaux drinkers will laugh at me ;) But for $100 you almost get a decent bottle of Single Malt :)

Stefan
 
Ironically I lived near the Rhein river and wine country for three years in Germany in my early twenties. I was just too young to appreciate the wonderful wines. I did live in Bitburg and could see the Bitburger factory from my apartment.
 
LOL. I was in Germany for about 6 months back in the 80's and never tried the wine. Too busy trying as much of the beer as I could.
Ironically I lived near the Rhein river and wine country for three years in Germany in my early twenties. I was just too young to appreciate the wonderful wines. I did live in Bitburg and could see the Bitburger factory from my apartment.
 
I'm getting back in the wine game now - been out of it for a few years. But I still feel the same way as before - wherever your price point is, finding good wine is just a matter of diligence, it just requires more at the low end, and less as you go up in price.

However, I will also say that it totally depends on the wine you're looking for. I don't think you can not look at where the wine comes from, etc. to say that there's a universal price point where there's diminishing returns.

Over the past few years, from what I observed, it was really difficult to find basic, decent French wines for under $15 because of the strength of the Euro. I completely quit trying to buy reasonably priced Bordeauxs because of this. So, I would say with French wines, and especially Champagne, where the number of bottles available under $30 is extremely limited (excluding sale prices), your ROI or where you start seeing diminishing returns might be higher than, say, German Rieslings, where I've found a number of really excellent drinking wines for under $30.

But, for example, a friend (who works for a wine store) pointed me to the J. Lassalle Preference NV Champagne. It's $29.99 and it's a killer deal. I would rather buy a case of this stuff, than 3 - 6 bottles of some higher end Champagnes.

I've always also tended to focus on good years; you'll have to hunt more for better wines in off years. Getting to recommendations, for Alsatian wines, I would still recommend recommend the big players like Zind-Humbrecht, Hugel, Schlumberger, Schoffit. They're consistent in quality and stylistically. For Pinot Noirs, eh - go with a good maker's lower wines. I've been buying Williams-Selyem because I'm on their list and their lower priced wines are in the $40 range and are excellent, if you can find them. I don't drink many Cabernet Sauvignons anymore, or Chardonnays for that matter.

Just off the top of my head, these are wines I've always liked that are reasonable: Bogle Phantom, Allegrini Palazzo Della Torre (haven't had this in a while but it was always consistent), Macrostie Chardonnay (again, haven't had this in a while, but always consistent), Domaine J. Laurens Cremant de Limoux (sparkling wine). If you want to take a step up to the $30-$50 range, I can recommend Delamotte NV Brut Champagne, the aforementioned J. Lassalle, vintage Laurent-Perrier Champagne and Louis Roederer Champagne in good years, Pierre Gimmonet NV Blanc de Blancs Champagne, Miura Pisoni Vineyard Pinot Noir, anything of Linne Calodo that you can find in this price range (the maker is my friend, but I stand by his wines - they're consistently really good), Newton Unfiltered Chardonnay, Williams Selyem Pinot Noirs (again, if you can find them). (Yeah, I like Champagne. I tend to prefer foods that happen to match well with Champagne; for the occasional beef or lamb, I'll definitely drink reds.)

Stylistically, I like balanced wines, so these may not necessarily be your cup of tea. But, like Stefan pointed out - you can buy a lot of other nice stuff for $100.

Good luck!
 
I think you should always be able to get a superb/outstanding wine in the $45-60 range if you look properly -- but of course it is very possible to find mediocre wine in this price range if you stray down the wrong path. And excellent wines in the $25-45 range are many and the easiest to find. But frankly, value hunting for wines in the $15-25 range is the most fun of all I think.

With that said, I rarely get my wines from physical wine stores or take their recommendations. In most wine stores, I don't find the sales staff that knowledgeable and the sales people will usually recommend wines they have tried -- but in bigger stores that may only be 10-20% of the bottles on offer (if that) and even then they will not have tried them in every vintage. So you are basically filtering your wine selection through a particular person's taste who may have only tried one in ten bottles in the store. That's a pretty limiting experience IMO and more often than not leads to mediocre wine.

Of course, there are some great stores out there too that are truly gems, and you can learn a lot from them and drink some great wine, but I find them fewer and fewer these days. As wine has exploded in the US, there is more crap wine knowledge than good advice out there. I order 90% of my wine online where I can sort, search, and filter wines in a way that matches my taste. There are even some wine stores that update their inventory hourly and let you download it in excel. Then you set up the filters and go to town on a treasure hunt. I love those places. I also order a good portion of my wine directly from wineries. Find a really good producer in your price range and try their selection of wines for a couple of years. I find it is a great way to try wines.

Now back to my Duckhorn split ;)

k.
 
We've had some fun hunting for great wines at Trader Joe's. Well, maybe "great" isn't the right word. More like "totally worth the money and maybe then some" wines. Should be findable (provided you have a TJ's that does wine) and very affordable.

Current favorites:
Tribunal Red
Liberte Cabernet Sauvignon
Liberte Pinot Noir
Sauvignon Republic Marlboro Sauvignon Blanc

Plenty of great wines for more money, but as drinky said, the fun part is finding the great ones for low prices.
 
Read a book. Get a basic knowledge of the most popular grape varieties and search yourself. Noone can promise the wine called good will actually taste good to you.

What I used to do was buying 5-6 bottles, same colour different grape and try them/compare. Hopefully you will start to find connection between grape variety and your preference. But yeah, drink drink drink

Up until you dont marry ultra tannic wine with bitter food for example, you should have fun.
 
I recommend watching Jancis Robinson's Wine Course dvds :)
 
Get an app for your phone. Handy little tool when blindly picking. Go to wine tastings. It's a good way to try several wines and knowledgeable people are doing the pouring.

Beware of collecting. I don't know about you but I tend to collect stuff. It can get expensive and stupid.

After decades in the fine dining biz I've tried a ton of wine. When it's all said and done I drink what I like and it's usually in the $20-$30 price range (Wholesale)

If you want to blow your mind go to the Food and Wine Festival in Aspen (Ususally in June) Pricey but you could literally taste at least a thousand different wines.

@ Stefan, I've been sitting on a D'yquem 90 for about ten years now. One of these days............
 
Start reading and tasting. Wine spectator used to be pretty good, just take the numbers with a grain of salt. They often have features on a region with focus on several representative makers. Costco is also a good place to start. They have big selection of good wines. I would avoid trader joes. Hone in on your preferences, learn about predominant characteristics of various grapes, regions etc. you do not need to nor would I advise spending a lot per bottle- good examples of most varietals to be had for 20-30 per bottle. It just takes time, education and an open mind. Good luck.
 
drink what you like no matter the price point. If you love two buck chuck drink, that if you love amarone drink that. unless you are a collector why waste the money unless it's for a special occasion.
 
Pick a grape, drink different wines that have it and learn what you like. You'll figure out what styles, countries and regions you prefer. Read the ratings and google everything and see what fits your wallet and palate. Go to tastings, buy online and if you really like something buy a case.

When it comes to recommendations and ratings you'll figure out who you like and who to ignore.

Start with low tannic wines with easy to grow grapes like Tempranillo, blends of syrah/shiraz and Grenache. Try zinfandel.

In the $15 range check out:
Acustic Montsant (Spain, carignan and garnacha blend)
Sogrape Calabriga Duoro Red (Portugal),
T-Sanzo Tempranillo Roble (Spain),
Apothic (California zin, merlot, syrah and cab blend)
Seghesio zinfandel

For the regular wino finding a great $30 wine is the goal, but for people with money some expensive wines are nirvana. If you have the dough some tiny California wineries are putting out $75-$200 wines that rival first growth Bordeaux at 3x the price.
Vine Hill Ranch (If a $150 bottle can ever be considered a bargain, this is it. Outstanding)
Hourglass (Best Merlot I’ve had)
Vineyardist
Ovid ($200 for their regular cab, a group of us liked the $100 2006 Ovid Experiment 9.36 just as much)
Seven Stones
Aaron Pott
Bruce Philips
Switchback Ridge (Same winemaker and 30 yards away from Hourglass at $20 less a bottle of merlot)
Peter Michael
Schrader

We recently drank the ’89 and ’90 d’Yquem Sauternes. Both were outstanding but the ’90 was better.
 
@ Stefan, I've been sitting on a D'yquem 90 for about ten years now. One of these days............

I sprang for a half bottle when I turned 40 and drank it with my wine friends. I was fortunate enough to try quite a few very nice German dessert wines and a few Sauternes, but this was really standing out of all the dessert wines I had.

Stefan
 
Pretty much what Salty, Son & Bieniek said.

Drink, listen, read, learn, ask questions, and drink some more. Drink what you like, and don’t get caught up in the hype. There are so may nice wines out there, but there’s also so so much hype and BS. Is a $150 bottle better than a $25 bottle? Not necessarily…

Being a private chef, I’ve had clients that drop bombs on wine, and I’ve gotten to try quite a few really nice wines. Only one was remarkable that stands out – ’79 Grand Vin de Chateau La Tour. There have been lots of other really nice wines, too.

One rule of thumb another good friend who’s a pretty good wine buff and I have – only drink one really nice bottle of wine at a time, and have it before you have ANYTHING else. After that it’s a waste.

Wine tastings can be fun, but after about 4-5-6 wines I’m overwhelmed.

Many of my friends that know wine are going with Old World wines rather than New World wines from Cali, South America & Australia. Some New Word wines have been getting a bad rap for being made with big bold, fruit forward and sweet flavor profiles – they’re being dubbed as made for uneducated people who are easily wowed and impressed.
 
Find a local wine shop run by folks who know their butts from a jug of cider. Google wine clubs. Colorado Springs has a number of them. Try to find one which is a real club...that is....just people who get together, taste and share their thoughts and their lucky finds...and DON'T necessarily sell wine. It shouldn't take long for you to discover your own tastes.
 
Many of my friends that know wine are going with Old World wines rather than New World wines from Cali, South America & Australia. Some New Word wines have been getting a bad rap for being made with big bold, fruit forward and sweet flavor profiles – they’re being dubbed as made for uneducated people who are easily wowed and impressed.

Old world wines do seem to have more finesse than some of the 'big' Cali wines. I'm not so sure about the uneducated part though as everyone's tastes vary and there are more than a few aficionados who dig big wines.

Only other thing that should be added to this is to find a place that has a knowledgeable buyer--you'll find better low-end wines (15-40$) more consistency than buying from some of the larger box stores.

Cheers!
 

Yeah, the Award of Excellence is, for the most part, BS. I remember when a friend of mine who was a manager of an LA restaurant was applying for the Award of Excellence around 2005. Granted, the restaurant had a relatively nice wine list, but all he had to do was mail a bunch of stuff in and pay the fee.
 
Wow a lot of great advice. I do have some basic knowledge. I've read books, especially when I lived in Germany. I brought back 150 wines from local wineries (and not the sweet stuff); so I had great wines (I kept them at my mothers house, and she sold bottles to doctors in the hospital she worked at...apparently at $30 it was a bargain to them). I certainly know the differences between merlot, shiraz, pinoit noir, cabernet, etc and how they are supposed to match up with food. It's the practical application and general opinions I find most interesting! Plus, tips and lessons learned are always awesome. I knew we had some very knowledgeable people here.
 
Looks like I am unedumacated also :) I prefer a bold Aussie Shiraz over an anaemic pinot noir ;) Again, try to find what you like and can afford. If I had the money to drink myself through some fine burgundies, I am sure I would learn to appreciate them as well... Craig's suggestions for starter grapes/blends sound good. Oh, and don't forget that there are also white wines. ;) Having grown up in Germany and now living in the tropics, I still drink more white than red.


Stefan
 
Pretty much what Salty, Son & Bieniek said.

Drink, listen, read, learn, ask questions, and drink some more. Drink what you like, and don’t get caught up in the hype. There are so may nice wines out there, but there’s also so so much hype and BS. Is a $150 bottle better than a $25 bottle? Not necessarily…

One rule of thumb another good friend who’s a pretty good wine buff and I have – only drink one really nice bottle of wine at a time, and have it before you have ANYTHING else. After that it’s a waste.

Wine tastings can be fun, but after about 4-5-6 wines I’m overwhelmed.

Many of my friends that know wine are going with Old World wines rather than New World wines from Cali, South America & Australia. Some New Word wines have been getting a bad rap for being made with big bold, fruit forward and sweet flavor profiles – they’re being dubbed as made for uneducated people who are easily wowed and impressed.

I agree with most everything that's been written here, especially the drinking part. My thought is - DRINK EVERYTHING. LOL.

Frankly, I think going to cheap wine tastings can be beneficial - you'll be able to try all kinds of things, and you'll learn what you DON'T like more than what you DO like. I've found more and more that if you go somewhere to shop, if you say "I like this . . ." someone will rattle off a number of wines that you'll supposedly like, and most of which, you probably won't. If you say, "I don't like this . . ." then you'll likely not get a wine that has a few things you really don't prefer or like in a wine.

For example, Total Wine has regular tastings. Most of the wines are absolute crap because they're cheap and chosen by people who don't know wine. But, the tastings are a a dime (IIRC). If you don't like the wines, you'll know to never buy them - they'll never even be an impulse buy. Also, Whole Foods markets generally have weekend wine tastings. They're relatively inexpensive as well (IIRC around $10). Build up your mental inventory of what you like and don't like.

But, as Son said, drink what you like. I'll admit that I've had some Two Buck Chuck (whites) recently. They're better than some of the swill I tried at Total Wine. Although I wouldn't buy it, if someone served it, I would drink it.

I forgot about some wines that I've had regularly and they're reasonable: Castle Rock Winery Pinot Noirs. I preferred the Monterey County to the Mendocino County, but they're solid wines.
 
For a few years now I've been threatening to do an ad hoc at home blind wine tasting with black coffee mugs just to see if poeple can even tell the difference between white and red when they can't see the color.
 
One thing I haven't seen anyone talk about yet. Keep a log of what you drink, what you tasted and smelled. Compare that with what was listed about the wine. As your tastings grow you def. want to go back and see if your taste has changed (it will) and how. Doing this will also help understand what is written and whether or not it is worth even tasting. Don't go by the stupid number system, I have tried some crappy 98's that was supposed to blow off my socks.
 
For me I was never into wine until I started at my last 2 jobs. I am pretty hooked on Russian river valley wines with falcor being my favorite so far
 
For a few years now I've been threatening to do an ad hoc at home blind wine tasting with black coffee mugs just to see if poeple can even tell the difference between white and red when they can't see the color.

Never tried that with wine but lost a bet on that with beer a long time ago. Two distinctly different beers in the same type of glass, you are blindfolded, someone randomly gives you a glass and you just say beer A or beer B, 10 times, reasonably fast succession. Noboby in our group of beer drinkers got it 100% correct. Maybe I should try that with red and white wine some day. Amazing how taste buds adapt.

Friends of mine are in the wine business and I hung out with them during a large wine fair in Germany a few times (forum vini, hundreds of producers). i learned that systematic tasting is hard work, that spitting is a must and over the course of a day you still get drunk, and how great a beer can taste if you tried wines all day... With spitting, lots of water and bread in between, I think I could taste maybe 30-40 wines during a day and still get nuances. Beyond that, I can't tell them apart anymore. Today I could probably do 10 or so... Just mentioning this to support the 'Try as much as you can' recommendation, but there is a limit of what you can try during a tasting.

Stefan
 
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