Suji dilemma: need some experienced advice

Ok, after spending way too much over the holidays, I've readjusted my "needs" and decided to scale back my purchase of a new suji from the $300 range to the $200 range.

The contenders are now kikuichi carbon ($150) and Hiro AS ($225) both 270's.

Questions for those of you who've used them:
Which is the better cutter, geometry, profile?
Is the Kikuichi really as good as they say?
Is there anything other the Hiro does better (other than look badass when thinned and patina'd along the edge) than the Kikuichi for the extra $$$?


What would you guys do? I just need a quality suji for portioning, trimming meat and fish, and slicing of cooked protiens. I teach, so no serious production volume these days.

Kikuichi is just fine, gets sharp, passable fit and finish, can take a beating. Hiro AS probably is a slightly better cutter with better edge retention, but not sure it warrants the extra $75. Hiro will probably hold more resale value than the Kikuichi. You may be able to pick up something used here at a discount if you can wait.

Thanks PB,
I'm surprised to hear that you think the Hiro cuts better. I keep reading such praise for the Kikuichi carbon that I guess I was expecting the opposite. Maybe it's just that its very good considering how cheap it is?
It probably says something that you don't see too many used Hiro sujis for sale, and the ones that do come up go quickly...

I'm not in any real rush, and I always keep my eye on the BST forum.

It's not that the Kikuichi is bad; it's actually quite good for the money. The Hiro is better, but its 50% more in cost, so you would expect something for your money. But is it 50% better?

I found the kikuichi carbon 270 handle to be small. Even with a rehandle, it still felt like a petty handle. It was ok otherwise. Not sure how much better it was than a Fujiwara carbon at half the price, though....

Are you open to other knives ?

What about carbonex or suisin inox western.

the kikuichi F&F is not the best

I agree with eaglerock, a co-worker has a kikuichi and the f&f was poor, this coming from a guy with more than one Tijiro IDK knives. I was in the same situation recently, and ordered a CarboNext. Price is similar, with a much better reputation.

I order a carbonext a few months back, great knife, good f&f and jck is a joy to work with, plus their 3 day shipping from Japan for 7 bucks doesn't hurt either.

pitonboy said:

The Hiro is better, but its 50% more in cost, so you would expect something for your money. But is it 50% better?

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So if you buy custom for 1000 will it be 400% better than Hiromoto?? :yammer:

OP, what you are going to use this knife for? Slicing meat/fish only?

For 200 dollars, theres pretty many choices, very well made handle on Misono Swedish, overally very nice knives for good money.

Thanks for all the input.
I looked at CarboNext, but I was under the impression that the Kikuichi was a better knife, so CarboNext took a back seat.
Haven't looked at Misono Swedish, I've read that they're very reactive, any truth to that?
Or any other suggestions anybody wants to throw out there are cool.

And any more first hand comments on Hiro are welcome.

The hattori forum is also an option.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/HattoriForumHighEndChefsKnives.html

Chefdog said:

Thanks for all the input.
I looked at CarboNext, but I was under the impression that the Kikuichi was a better knife, so CarboNext took a back seat.
Haven't looked at Misono Swedish, I've read that they're very reactive, any truth to that?
Or any other suggestions anybody wants to throw out there are cool.

And any more first hand comments on Hiro are welcome.

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I have a couple of Hiro sujis, a 270 and 300. They're very good, albeit a tad thick. Not baseball bat thick, but just a little bit beefier than I ideally prefer. I've always found them to be excellent performers. It's nothing that a little fine tuning on the stones wouldn't easily sort out, but I'm splitting hairs here. Because of the warikomi construction, they have a decidedly more solid and substantial feel to them, which is not a criticism, just an observation.

I also have a Kikuichi, it's thin, light, but significantly more reactive than Misono. The handle does feel a bit small, so if you have large hands, you might not find it as comfortable. It was my go to at work for quite a while until I decided a 240 would be a better fit. It still sees regular use at home and always gets thrown into my travel kit. The current suji in my work kit is a 240 Misono Swedish. It's very good. Excellent F&F, thin, light, perhaps a bit less edge retention than the Hiros and comparable retention with the Kikuichi but I'm pretty tough on my work sujis. The steel isn't horribly reactive. It's moderately reactive, at best. Mine is currently a fairly evenly hazy blue gray. Because both the Kikuichi and Misono are monosteel and fairly thin and light, they both have a little bit of flex to them. I don't mind that, but it does contribute to a feeling that they're a bit less robust than the Hiros.

Honestly, I don't think you can make a bad choice amongst any of them, including the CN. They'll all do what you want them to do. In my mind, the biggest choice is in construction. Do you prefer monosteel or warikomi? If you prefer the latter, your choice is pretty simple. If the former, then you have a bit more to consider but no matter which one you end up with, I'm sure you'll be pleased with your choice.

Jmadams13 said:

The hattori forum is also an option.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/HattoriForumHighEndChefsKnives.html

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My go-to gyuto at work is a Hattori 240 FH, and i think its quite a good knife. I have no doubt that the suji is every bit as good, but I really want to try something carbon, otherwise the forum would be a no brainer choice for me.

Miles,
Thanks very much for the detailed response, it helps quite a bit. I'm not terribly fond of too much flex, so that's a negative for the kikuichi. And the idea of putting in a little work to tune in the Hiro a little is actually a plus in my mind. If you're feeling like you don't need both of your Hiro AS suji's, let me know.

I have the kikuichi suji and don't like it at all. It is my only suji so no recomendations aside from the fact that I use my Misono Swedish gyuto over the kikuichi suji for slicing every time. If you wanna borrow the kikuichi for a test drive shoot me a PM. I haven't used it for a year.

Chuckles,
What is it that you dislike about the kikuichi?

I owned the Hirimoto, but as others said it need some tweaking "thinning and maybe a new handle" to be a bad ass

No problem, glad to share my experience.

On the issue of flex, I should say that the Kikuichi has noticeably more than the Misono. The Misono has just slightly more than the Hiros. If you prefer a stiffer knife, the Hiros have least flex of the three. However, if you are leaning towards monosteel, the Misono is close enough to the Hiros that I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it.

Only two things have ever really bothered me about a suji. 1. flexibility at the machi and 2. thickness behind the edge. The first happens on all laser-type knives with wa handles. They are great cutters but it's just wierd to feel the flex there. The second... Well, I thin my blades with few exceptions.

Hard to put my finger on it, especially since I haven't used it for a while. It just doesn't feel very good in my hand. Maybe weight distribution? I will take it out of the drawer tonight and give it a go. I have a few other knives in its class: Suisin high carbon, Misono swedish carbon. These knives I wish I could use more than I do. I want to use the Kikiuichi when I am looking at it but after I pick it up I wish it was a different knife.

For gyutos I would take the Misono over the Suisin and Kikuichi based on profile (and cool dragon). For a suji - with a more or less standard profile and with dollars to performance as a driving factor - the Suisin high carbon at Korin would be my choice if I were to do it again.

One of them has a dragon on it. A dragon. :cool2:

ThEoRy said:

One of them has a dragon on it. A dragon. :cool2:

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lus1:

Chuckles said:

- the Suisin high carbon at Korin would be my choice if I were to do it again.

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bingo. I have the 240 gyuto and am shocked at the geometry and edge retention for a $110 knife.

When I had to choose a suji my train of thoughts was: it needs to be slicing stuff elengantly therefore I want a thin knife, with an excellent edge, a steel with small carbides and that can achieve great sharpness, edge retention comes second as it will not see the use of a gyuto. I ended up with a Sakai Yusuke in aeb-l. Keeping with the current choices in this thread I would go with a carbonext but I have no informed knowledge to support this choice, just personal taste. Looking back at this reply it somehow sucks

A little thread revival here.

Please offer your opinions concerning CarboNext, Hiro AS & Misono Swede sujis. Interested mostly in how they sharpen (feel and edge taking), and the geometry, prodile and flexibility of the blades. A lot of you have voiced your opinions of the Hiro, and I know it'll take some thinning to bring out its potential. I guess bottom line is whether or not the Swede and Hiro offer any tangible "improvement" over the CarboNext for the additional $$$ ? FWIW, these wont be taken to anywhere past 5K, so the ability of one or the other to get marginally sharper won't really be exploited.
I have no problem spending more, if I'm getting more knife, but if the CarboNext gives practical the same performance, I can put the difference towards another knife :biggrin:
Thanks in advance.

haven't had much experience on my swede but aogami super just takes an amaaaaaaazing edge. =D

can't really say anything about the carbonext but i am interested in semi stainless like carbonext as well.

franzb69 said:

haven't had much experience on my swede but aogami super just takes an amaaaaaaazing edge. =D

can't really say anything about the carbonext but i am interested in semi stainless like carbonext as well.

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This is one of the areas I'm interested in hearing more about. Will the AS in the Hiro take a measurably better/steeper edge than the Swede or CarboNext if they're not taken above 5K? And will it be harder to grind than the others?

FWIW, I'm using Chosera 400, JNS 1K & JNS synthetic aoto. I also have some 1micron BC paste but I havent been using it lately.

carbons are carbons in my experience.... not at all harder to sharpen even at slightly higher hardness. the swede is sure is a pleasure to sharpen. i was literally smiling while i was making the motions. i was almost giggly. lol. stainless steel is the only thing that i have a hard time sharpening.

can't tell you if the swede will take a steeper edge since the only misono swede i have is a hankotsu and it's as we know a thick knife and needs to be that way. someone with the dragon should answer this for us. =D

but the blue can take pretty anorexic thinness and still have a tough edge, assuming that you don't bash it all to hell. i only use it on veg and nothing too tough. i have tried cutting frozen bacon and another cured meat that i made with it and it do it well. but that was just an experiment, would not do it again. lol. i've chipped the tip on it and well....that wasn't a pleasant experience. only reason i chipped it was because i tried twisting the tip on the frozen bacon on soft bone and that did it in. (stupid me!!!!!!!!!!!) a big no-no as we all know....lesson learned.

since i sharpened my blue even before cutting said bacon, i still haven't had to retouch it yet. but then again i don't really use it a whole lot anymore since i keep getting other knives to play with.

i haven't taken my blue to 5k. i've stropped it on a natural chinese 12k slate, but i'm not really sure on the actual grit on that thing. after doing that, every slice i made was literally cutting through my board, plastic and wood. biting through it even on lighter strokes. it was, well....disturbing, in a good way! that time i didn't have a suehiro rika 5k yet.

with the rising prices of other similar semi stainless knives (konosuke hd, kikuichi tkc) the carbonext seems like an even better deal now than it was in the past. i want to grab something from that line before the inevitable price increase. considering i dont use sujis as frequently as i do gyutos, cleavers and pettys im reluctant to spend as much for a suji. misono sweds are pretty nice, but at $243 vs $139 ill take the carbonext.

labor of love said:

with the rising prices of other similar semi stainless knives (konosuke hd, kikuichi tkc) the carbonext seems like an even better deal now than it was in the past. i want to grab something from that line before the inevitable price increase. considering i dont use sujis as frequently as i do gyutos, cleavers and pettys im reluctant to spend as much for a suji. misono sweds are pretty nice, but at $243 vs $139 ill take the carbonext.

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Craig,
What's your experience been with CarboNext? Is it just as good as carbon on the stones?

well i havent gotten around to getting a carbonext, yet. im just basing my opinion off stevenstevano and caddy, both of whom i trust. steven says his kono hd western and his carbonext are very similar knives, and the f&f is actually better on the carbonext. i love hd steel but theyre popularity has pushed their price up enough now to where i would just go with something else. misono sweds definitely rock but the reactivity just made it difficult to work with for me personally, and im not into patinas, i prefer my knives polished and shiny.