240 Gyuto analysis paralysis

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M

Melburn

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Aug 8, 2020
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Location
Melbourne
Hi everybody. Thanks for the warm welcome in the intro section.

Its funny, for work I train people in retail to simplify messaging so as to not overwhelm potential customers yet when I want to buy something I have a small habit of overthinking things....


LOCATION
What country are you in?

Melbourne Australia


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

240 gyuto

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

I lean towards Wa but am intrigued by a slimmer TF style Yo handle.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

I think I want a true 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

I am leaning stainless but not married to the idea. Definitely SS clad.

I am keen to try a Ginsan knife.





What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

$400 Australian



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

All around chef knife. I expect to use this knife around 80 percent of the time. I have a Chinese cleaver for rough work and and some older German knives for work around bones. For detailed work I have a 210 laserish gyuto.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not replacing anything. Complimenting a 210 laserish gyuto and 165 Nakiri. 6 inch z Kramer

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

pinch.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Slice cut mostly occasional rock chopping.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I think I want something that is on the heavier side and relatively thin behind the edge not too delicate.

Not too flat of profile.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Function over fashion

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Good fit and finish is a nice plus but cutting ability is key.

Eased spine and choil should be a given.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

I want is to able to take a very keen edge. I definitely like a fine tip for detail work.

With my limited skills and set up I find I can get white 2 way sharper than blue super.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

Home use so I will not blunt them quickly. I usual sharpen monthly with a occasional touch up on a 3000 stone.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

End grain.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

yes.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

always trying to learn more.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

I currently have Naniwa pro 220 and 1000/3000 combo and an old leather belt to strop. Open to suggestions.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Given the COVID world I would prefer to purchase domestically. The two main local players are Knives and Stones and Chefs Armoury. Happy to look at other options. Haven’t shopped there yet but am keen to try K&S

I have a Mono Z Kramer in Aebl and like the feel cutting and on the stones. I really like the sound of Ginsan. Is there a good reason to lean towards one or the other? Are any of your powder steel knives fun to sharpen?

As to options, Tanaka seems to be the obvious choice. Is there something else I should look at?

To through a spanner in the works, what about local maker? Happy for responses in pms if makers do not want their pricing publicbut what can expect to pay for a Kip 240?

Thanks in advance for any advise.
 
Mmm...

Heavier knife but thin behind the edge... somewhat contradictory... I guess it's all relative.

May wanna have a squiz at Shinko Kurokumo. R2 steel. Subtle damascus cladding. Rounded spine and choil. Moderately curved profile. Convexed blade face. Middleweight knife with nice balance between thinness and food release. Not much distal taper, though.

Tanaka Nashiji is a nice knife. More curved profile. A thinner knife than Kurokumo, with poorer food release. Ginsan and blue2 are both nice but blue2 definitely nicer to sharpen. Once again, minimal taper.

Tempted to suggest Wakui hammered but it's a heavier knife and not as thin behind the edge and the profile is a lot flatter. Some distal taper however.

You will need to contact Aussie custom makers about their prices. You may wanna get on a wait list anyway- many of thes guys have waits of several months or even over a year.
 
(Sorry I'm not going to be of any proper help here...)

Just out of interest what Chinese cleaver do you have?
 
It's worth pointing out that most Chinese cleavers ate thinner knives intended for vegetables rather than meat and especially not for bones.

Use a cheap Western meat cleaver instead
 
Nemo said:
Mmm...

Heavier knife but thin behind the edge... somewhat contradictory... I guess it's all relative.

May wanna have a squiz at Shinko Kurokumo. R2 steel. Subtle damascus cladding. Rounded spine and choil. Moderately curved profile. Convexed blade face. Middleweight knife with nice balance between thinness and food release. Not much distal taper, though.

Tanaka Nashiji is a nice knife. More curved profile. A thinner knife than Kurokumo, with poorer food release. Ginsan and blue2 are both nice but blue2 definitely nicer to sharpen. Once again, minimal taper.

Tempted to suggest Wakui hammered but it's a heavier knife and not as thin behind the edge and the profile is a lot flatter. Some distal taper however.

You will need to contact Aussie custom makers about their prices. You may wanna get on a wait list anyway- many of thes guys have waits of several months or even over a year.
Click to expand...

Thanks for coming back.


My favourite cutting knife is this Kuro Kuma Ishi 165 Nakiri

it’s quite thick along the spine and thus heavy but then tapers quickly and is thin behind the edge and along the blade road.

I would love to replicate this feel in a bigger gyuto. The option exists to buy the same in a 240 gyuto but I would like to try something different.

I will have a look at the kurokomo and wakui

cheers
 
Nemo said:
It's worth pointing out that most Chinese cleavers ate thinner knives intended for vegetables rather than meat and especially not for bones.

Use a cheap Western meat cleaver instead
Click to expand...

oops this reply was intended for cotedupy

Don’t know much about the cleaver. Bought it at Walmart in China. It’s a midweight stainless with full tang and smaller plastic handle. It has a small section at the heel that is ground to a steeper bevel.

I generally use it to break down carcasses for stock.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the responses.

A couple R2/Sg2 suggestions so far. My fear is that this is not as easy/fun to sharpen as others.

On an ease of sharpening scale would you but it closer to AS or W1?
 
Melburn said:
Thanks for the responses.

A couple R2/Sg2 suggestions so far. My fear is that this is not as easy/fun to sharpen as others.

On an ease of sharpening scale would you but it closer to AS or W1?
Click to expand...
R2 is not as easy to sharpen as any carbon steel that I have used but it's not really that difficult. Deburring is the main thing that requires more attention IMO. FWIW, I like Kippington's deburring method for R2.

When you say W1, do you mean AISI W1 or do you mean white #1? Neither are particularly common steels IME (I have not used knives in either steel). I have however used both AISI W2 and white #2, which are both very nice to sharpen when properly heat treated.
 
I've got a bunch of knives from k&s. I would suggest the Yoshimi Kato nashiji aogami as a top performer (some call it Kanehiro).

I also really like the Wakui hammered, but it's a different beast. As mentioned, flat profile, yet a swooping tip. Beefier, but adequately thin behind the edge.

Also, don't overlook Tanaka. They are popular for a reason, and James spends a bit extra time rounding the choil and spine for you.
 
Melburn said:
oops this reply was intended for cotedupy

Don’t know much about the cleaver. Bought it at Walmart in China. It’s a midweight stainless with full tang and smaller plastic handle. It has a small section at the heel that is ground to a steeper bevel.

I generally use it to break down carcasses for stock.
Click to expand...

Sounds good and functional :)
 
Melburn said:
Thanks for coming back.


My favourite cutting knife is this Kuro Kuma Ishi 165 Nakiri

it’s quite thick along the spine and thus heavy but then tapers quickly and is thin behind the edge and along the blade road.

I would love to replicate this feel in a bigger gyuto. The option exists to buy the same in a 240 gyuto but I would like to try something different.

I will have a look at the kurokomo and wakui

cheers
Click to expand...
May wanna have a look at Kurosaki Shizuku. Moderately thick spine. Almost laser thin behind the edge. Moderately (but not super) flat profile, though. Minimal taper. It's a concave wide bevel.

At a higher price piont, Akebono is similar (although convex ground). Minimal taper. Magical profile produces a consistent contact patch. It has a convex blade face. However it is an ironclad carbon steel knife. And I think now out of stock.

The KnS Tanaka Migaki is worth considering. Thicker spine, very thin behind the edge. Profile seems to me less curved than Nashiji. Not sure if James specified an Akebono profile- looks a bit like it to me. Convex blade face. Only available in 210 at the moment.

Or look for a Kippington Laser. Thicker spine, laser thin edge. Extreme taper. Concave ground hidden wide bevel. Width of the wide bevel tapers with the distal taper of the knife. Profiled as you see fit but... Kip understands profiles much more than do I. So maybe just go with his rec. Probably a bit more than 400 smackers, though.
 
Hard to go wrong with Tanaka Ginsanko from K&S. Great vendor, great maker, great steel, great overall value.
Not sure if they’ve gotten thinner over the years, but I love my 2015 version, which is definitely mid-weight.
 
toddnmd said:
Hard to go wrong with Tanaka Ginsanko from K&S. Great vendor, great maker, great steel, great overall value.
Not sure if they’ve gotten thinner over the years, but I love my 2015 version, which is definitely mid-weight.
Click to expand...
I think mine is 2017. Quite thin.
 
There is also Y Tanaka on sale at JNS - superb maker and 40 percent off list
JNS ships with rapid delivery worldwide
 
Nemo said:
R2 is not as easy to sharpen as any carbon steel that I have used but it's not really that difficult. Deburring is the main thing that requires more attention IMO. FWIW, I like Kippington's deburring method for R2.

When you say W1, do you mean AISI W1 or do you mean white #1? Neither are particularly common steels IME (I have not used knives in either steel). I have however used both AISI W2 and white #2, which are both very nice to sharpen when properly heat treated.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nemo

Could you compare the sharpening experience of SG2 to AEB-L? With my Zwilling Kramer it took a bit of time to figure out how to debut but once I learned its a breeze.

The more I think about this sharpen ability most important to me for this knife. I love the feel of my white 2 nakiri with just a couple strokes on a 3000 stone. If I go stainless I am pretty locked on Ginsan otherwise maybe it’s time to try something in Blue 2 or White 1.

Also on my radar is 180-210 all around kitchen knife to be shared with the wife. This will definitely need to be stainless and it bit more robust. Maybe an 8 inch z Kramer who knows?

Learning acronyms around here. When I said W1 I meant Shirogami 1.
 
Nemo said:
May wanna have a look at Kurosaki Shizuku. Moderately thick spine. Almost laser thin behind the edge. Moderately (but not super) flat profile, though. Minimal taper. It's a concave wide bevel.

At a higher price piont, Akebono is similar (although convex ground). Minimal taper. Magical profile produces a consistent contact patch. It has a convex blade face. However it is an ironclad carbon steel knife. And I think now out of stock.

The KnS Tanaka Migaki is worth considering. Thicker spine, very thin behind the edge. Profile seems to me less curved than Nashiji. Not sure if James specified an Akebono profile- looks a bit like it to me. Convex blade face. Only available in 210 at the moment.

Or look for a Kippington Laser. Thicker spine, laser thin edge. Extreme taper. Concave ground hidden wide bevel. Width of the wide bevel tapers with the distal taper of the knife. Profiled as you see fit but... Kip understands profiles much more than do I. So maybe just go with his rec. Probably a bit more than 400 smackers, though.
Click to expand...

do you think that the below is the same as the kurosaki shizuku?Kurosaki Wenge 240mm Gyuto

will reach to k and s for a bit of context on the different Tanakas. Seems like there are lots of different variants.

A Kippington is very much on my radar for the future. Always prefer to do business locally and his style aligns with what I am in to.
 
Melburn said:
Thanks Nemo

Could you compare the sharpening experience of SG2 to AEB-L? With my Zwilling Kramer it took a bit of time to figure out how to debut but once I learned its a breeze.

The more I think about this sharpen ability most important to me for this knife. I love the feel of my white 2 nakiri with just a couple strokes on a 3000 stone. If I go stainless I am pretty locked on Ginsan otherwise maybe it’s time to try something in Blue 2 or White 1.

Also on my radar is 180-210 all around kitchen knife to be shared with the wife. This will definitely need to be stainless and it bit more robust. Maybe an 8 inch z Kramer who knows?

Learning acronyms around here. When I said W1 I meant Shirogami 1.
Click to expand...
To me, AEBL seems easier to sharpen and especially deburr than SG2. If you find SG2 a breeze to deburr, either you are a much more accomplished sharpener than I or you have more levels of appreciation of sharpness still to discover (descend through?). I find that getting most SG2 to acceptable sharpness is not too hard but I have to work hard to refine the burr to get it close to the sharpness that I can get a good carbon steel blade to with much less effort. Whilst the KDM (Kippington deburring method) leaves a microbevel and therefore a less acute edge, I find it to be a quick and reliable way of deburring this kind of steel, which results in a more than adequately sharp edge that is durable.

The sharpening charecteristics of carbon steels seem to vary a bit by maker but in general, it's much easier to control and remove the burr (not to mention grind ) than SG2 (and indeed most/ all other stainless).
 
ian said:
I too am into very good knives.
Click to expand...
Nemo said:
To me, AEBL seems easier to sharpen and especially deburr than SG2. If you find SG2 a breeze to deburr, either you are a much more accomplished sharpener than I or you have more levels of appreciation of sharpness still to discover (descend through?). I find that getting most SG2 to acceptable sharpness is not too hard but I have to work hard to refine the burr to get it close to the sharpness that I can get a good carbon steel blade to with much less effort. Whilst the KDM (Kippington deburring method) leaves a microbevel and therefore a less acute edge, I find it to be a quick and reliable way of deburring this kind of steel, which results in a more than adequately sharp edge that is durable.

The sharpening charecteristics of carbon steels seem to vary a bit by maker but in general, it's much easier to control and remove the burr (not to mention grind ) than SG2 (and indeed most/ all other stainless).
Click to expand...

Hey Nemo

To be clear I find AEBL relatively easy to debar, I have no experience sharpening SG2.

You confirmed my thinking that I will pass on SG2 for my primary knife. I have heard enough people talking about the chalenges of sharpening SG2 for my tastes. For a knife that my wife and i will share different story.
 
Melburn said:
do you think that the below is the same as the kurosaki shizuku?Kurosaki Wenge 240mm Gyuto

will reach to k and s for a bit of context on the different Tanakas. Seems like there are lots of different variants.

A Kippington is very much on my radar for the future. Always prefer to do business locally and his style aligns with what I am in to.
Click to expand...

The Kurosaki that you linked has a very similar hammer pattern. I'm pretty hopeless at interpreting choil shots but the choil shot looks like a much less thin behind the edge knife than the Shizuku. Could be an optical illusion I guess. So in summary- dunno.

There are a few different Tanaka grinds. My nashiji is a moderately thin knife but certainly no laser with a flat wide bevel and a curved profile. The Migakiis perhaps a little thinner, with a convex blade face and it seems to me a flatter profile (a little hard to a compare 210 To a 240). I believe that the damascus and Ku versions are a bit beefier but haven't used them.
 
Melburn said:
Hey Nemo

To be clear I find AEBL relatively easy to debar, I have no experience sharpening SG2.

You confirmed my thinking that I will pass on SG2 for my primary knife. I have heard enough people talking about the chalenges of sharpening SG2 for my tastes. For a knife that my wife and i will share different story.
Click to expand...
To be clear, it's not hard to get SG2 acceptably sharp and it will retain that sharpness for a long time. It just takes more work in deburring to get nearly as sharp as you can mak a carbon steel knife with much less effort. There are many situations where a complex PM steel like SG2 makes a lot of sense. Now days, though, I tend to reach for my carbon blades.
 
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