240 mm damascus gyuto passaround

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Woohoo! I'm heading to NY later this morning for a long weekend, and will now be looking forward to seeing the New and Improved D.E. Gyuto when I return at the beginneing of next week! :EDance2:
 
Sweet, I was starting to wonder :)
I like the new shape, this blade height is much more to my liking.
 
I'm looking forward to it although I'm a little disappointed I didn't see the original version.
 
Came into work yesterday from an extended weekend, and had a box from Del waiting in my office :) Took it home and unpacked it last night. Wow, it is really a different knife! Blade height is reduced a bit, and the handle went on a nice diet. Balance point is now a tad into the blade. Looks very, very promising! Will start using it tonight and gathering info for a review.
 
David,
Glad to hear it arrived, let me know how the wife likes the handle now. :wink:
Del
 
God I wish I was part of this passaround! Any updates Wildboar?
Pesky
 
Please forgive me in advance, as this is my first real knife review. I want to preface the review with a little background information: I’m a home cook with no restaurant background, and my education in ‘real’ kitchen knives only started about 18 months ago. I started with a western 210 Hiromoto AS gyuto, which I did not like as much as the 10 inch Shun I had been using (it was a bit too thick, and not sharpened very well). After I got the first J-knife I started accumulating some stones, then I took Dave M’s intro sharpening class. I picked up a Shigi nakiri – which has been a drawer queen – and had Pierre Rodrigue make me a parer, petty and suji. Those knives helped further both of our educations a bit. I followed those up with wa-handled DT ITK 240 gyuto (AEB-L) and a Dave M-rehandled/ sharpened 240 Hiromoto AS gyuto.

I first spoke to Del this past winter, as I had some ideas for non-knife damascus products. I found him to be passionate about his damascus, as well as his desire to produce the best kitchen knives possible. He was quite eager to absorb any info he could on what makes good kitchen knives. So I was pretty stoked when he offered one up for a pass-around, and I was able to get on the list.

The knife was initially handed to me at the ECG. It was one of 4 gyutos he had on display. All were in his random damascus pattern, and most had dark handles. There was a little variation between knives with respect to the interface between handle/ ferrule and choil, but overall there was no question they were for all intents identical knives as far as shape, weight and finish.

Once we got home from the ECG and I unpacked Del’s knife, I really had a chance to notice how much lighter it felt then the DT ITK, even though both the blade and handle were noticeably bigger then the DT knife. I was practically grinning in anticipation when I grabbed the first few garlic cloves and onions to start cutting up. Only... it really... did not cut. And that led to Del’s "How Thin is too Thin" thread :)

So fast-forward to June 28. After a 5 day trip to the Finger Lakes region of NY, I returned to work to find a box waiting for me. It was the pass-around gyuto, fresh from a reworking by Del. The blade was reground in hopes of eliminating the issue with the edge rolling over, it was sharpened, and the handle had been reduced substantially in width. Let the games begin!

Well, kinda sorta. My wife had relatives coming to stay for a couple days, and we spent most nights that week getting the house back in order (we’re finally wrapping up an addition. renovation project). And the dinners we made for them did not involve much prep. I made tomato sauce for a pasta dinner one night, and a roasted pork shoulder for the second night. So a little bit of onion, carrot, garlic, etc., as well as herbs and salad stuff. Not nearly the work-out I would have liked to have given the knife, but it was the best I could manage in the time frame I had the knife in my possession.

So I’ll leave it to other people on the pass-around list to comment on edge retention, ease of sharpening, etc., and I’ll focus more on fit ‘n’ finish and ergonomics.

Aesthetics

- It's dark. Between the etched blade, ferrule and handle, it is a dark knife. I was referring to it as a medieval look. I would say it is less striking then it is camouflaged. In fact, it almost hides when laying on a cutting board. I think this look will divide people a bit. I personally would like to see at least a lighter/ contrasting ferrule to make things, well, pop just a little. This is purely subjective, but both my wife and I wished at least one element on this pass-around knife was lighter/ more contrasting. It's also likely that when made with a patterned damascus the same overall color scheme will not have the same net effect.

Balance Point

- The mods Del did to this knife successfully moved the balance point a little down the blade (it was initially right at the end of the ferrule), which was great. But I think the handle had to be ground down a little too much to achieve that. See the 'Heel/ Choil' and 'Handle' items below for more in-depth info.

Blade:

Profile

- It looked like the blade was a little flatter at the heel then before the regrind, but the overall flat area was still on the short side for my tastes. It is somewhere around 3.5 inches. For such a long knife I think keeping it flat for another inch would be good. I would also like to see a flat section of edge near the tip for mincing, as it was pretty much curved all the way to the tip. With all that being said, I realize there was only so much that could be tweaked on the regrind. I found myself adjusting back to the cutting motions I used to use with my Wusthof (i.e., in the dark days before I found Japanese knives :) ) in order to fully separate slices. I also would love the seem the tip lowered slightly, which may aid in providing a flat area near the top.

[for fun, I compared the flat area with the 240 Hiro, the DT ITK and the Pierre Damasteel – which arrived the day before I packed up Del’s knife. None of them had a flat edge any longer then the one on Del’s knife, which surprised me a bit. Especially the DT knife, as it has always seemed like the flat edge was pretty long. But on careful examination, the last ~ inch on my DT ITK is actually slightly overground, which reduced the flat area a bit from how it appeared to my eye over the last ~6 months)]

Heel/ Choil:

- My wife and I both had comfort issues with the heel/ choil. The ferrule ends right at the start of the curve for the choil, and when pinch gripping the radiused choil fell at an awkward part of the pointer finger (the choil landed on the middle of the end piece of the pointer finger). It led to both of us pinch gripping a little further towards the blade tip, which then threw the balance point of the knife behind the grip point. FWIW, I noticed at the ECG that the handles/ ferrules on all 4 gyutos seemed to terminate at slightly different points with respect to the choil radius start point, so this condition likely varies knife-to-knife.

Handle:

Profile

- The pendulum swung on this item during the time Del reworked the knife. What had been chunky and clunky was now reprofiled to where the handle was a little bit too narrow for my tastes. Although I pinch grip, the last couple fingers cradle the bottom of the handle, and I found myself having to tighten my grip a little extra to keep the handle under control. Once again, I'm sure there were compromises when Del reworked the knife, especially when trying to move the balance point forward. I think if the handle were a millimeter or so wider it would improve the comfort factor for me. Also, Del’s hybrid handle has some wavyness on the underside (like a normal western handle); I can't say I noticed it affecting comfort one way or another, so it mainly an aesthetic item. I could live without it, but it is one of those visual cues that helps identify it as one of Del’s knives.

Finish

- The finish on the handle (sanding, etc.) was first-class. But with the handful of well-handled knives in my possession now, it had some stiff competition. Both woods are distinctive, and the transition from handle to ferrule is as smooth as can be. However, the edges along the front end of the ferrule were not eased, so they cut into the side of my pointer finger a little. And, when combined with the choil issues above, this led to both my wife and I having to pinch a bit more forward onto the blade then normal. As a result, the balance point wound up behind the grip, making the knife a little harder to control. This should be a super easy ‘fix’ on future knives, though.

- There were a few small divots/ holes in the handle that may have benefitted by filling them in -- although I realize this is a matter a personal preference.

Cutting:

- Wow, what a difference a regrind makes! The knife now fells through tomatoes and onions with only the slightest push or pull cut. But to cleanly separate slices, more of a push or pull -- or a rock -- needs to be applied at the board surface due to the limited flat area near the heel. I finely chopped a couple onions close to the same consistency we get from using a grater or food processor (we do this for adding to ground beef to make juicier hamburgers), which I could never dream of doing with one of the Hiromotos we have. And while cutting off the ends of garlic cloves still took a bit of pressure, slicing/ mincing the cloves once peeled was pretty effortless. Mincing a carrot was no trouble at all. And I sliced up some pork shoulder as well, and it glided down through the meat.

- I noticed the blade flexing a little while cutting off the garlic clove ends and working on the carrots, but it did not seem to create any problems. I suspect tweaking of my cutting technique when using this knife could eliminate most of the flexing. In a discussion with Del, he already has some modifications planned for future gyuto grinds that should greatly reduce this issue.

At the end of the day, the cutting ability is probably the most important aspect of the knife, and I think Del is just about there. With some tweaks to the profile (at least for my taste), future gyutos will be killer.
 
[Part 2]

Misc:

- As well as the knife fell through onions, it was a struggle making the horizontal cuts when dicing. It felt like the blade was wedging, but I really think it is more of a friction/ adhesion issue due to the etched damascus. In fact, the effect seemed to diminish a little as a patina started forming, but I was not been able to use it enough to confirm the issue really is going away. Is this due mainly to my technique? It could be, as I do these cuts much slower then Salty, Colin and others. I would have liked a little more time to play with this aspect, but alas I’ll have to leave that to others.

- In general, food sticking was not as much of an issue as I thought it would be due to the etched damascus and flat grind, but onion bits did have a bit of an affinity for the blade. I did not cut up any potatoes, so I cannot confirm if they have friction or sticking issues. It will be interesting to see the comments from other testers, as I really do feel like the full development of the patina will greatly reduce any friction. And FWIW I did a quick comparo with the Pierre Damasteel using an onion and tomato, and they were comparable.

- When I looked past the choil/ ferrule end comfort issues and resulting balance issue, the knife really was a joy to use. It is light and very nimble. And with a few minor tweaks, I think some of you restaurant cooks could use it 12 hours straight.

- Due to my limited use, I did not fell a need to touch up the edge. So I'll leave it to the next one or two people down the line to say what they think about edge retention and ease of sharpening. I’ll also leave it to others to take all of the measurements, but I will say I preferred the blade height after the regrind, as it was a little tall for me when I first picked up the knife at the ECG.

- I only had one night to play with both Del’s knife and Pierre’s Damasteel pass-around. Wow, it would be harder to find two knives that are more different, yet both kick butt on the cutting board! But Del’s knife could do some things Pierre’s could not, like making thin horizontal slices in a tomato without having to hold the tomato in place.

Del, thanks for letting me play with your knife this past week. It’s a really, really good knife that I believe is going to lead into a bunch of phenomenal knives going forward!

Pics will follow at some point over the weekend. And have fun with this knife, Jim!
 
I wanna play with it! I've been drooling over Del's stuff for a while now. Great review!!
 
I came back just to feel my stomach growl again...what a great feeling. :rolleyes2:
 
Here is the fillets and braciole from the post above.


 
Sweet. I'm not long for it then.
I had requested to be after TK so I can see what the deal is with these mad sharpening skills I keep hearing of.
Following the PT's for location I never saw anything officially on the order though, how is that being handled?
Del just telling us who is next?
Thanks.
 
Wenus2,
That has pretty much been the case so far. It was my intention to post a list, but if you have read the redesign thread you can tell I have been busy with that. It is on its way to Tk59 and then on to you.
Thanks,
Del
 
Here's my Cliff's notes version. WildBoar summed most of it up already.

Profile: Too much belly, too little flat area, nice tip - pointed and short from edge to spine
Geometry: Flat ground, thin. Significant friction going through large objects like onions.
Steel: Easy to sharpen to a very keen edge. Seems pretty tough, as well.
Ergonomics: The handle feels molded to my hand. It is angled down which is a little odd feeling.
Aesthetics: The handle makes the knife look a bit droopy. It is a dark pattern with a dark handle but each component works well with the others. The damascus is deeply etched and quite striking.
Fit and finish: Pretty much perfect except for a bit of an edge at the end of the bolster and the holes in the handle. Wouldn’t know what to do with them but they don’t seem good to have and don’t look great.
Bottom line: It’s a handsome, rock-chopper knife with good but unspectacular cutting performance due to the flat grind and a slightly droopy handle. I’m going with the revamped gyuto design shown in the "improvements" thread. That is going to be a killer knife. I can't wait to get my hands on one. :viking:
 
Well written. My sentiments exactly about the performance. I do want to reiterate how striking this knife is. I disagree with TK about the handle's holes. The handle has not been filled. The slight holes add to its organic feel. This knife was unlike anything I have used in the past. While a So-so cutter, this knife feels incredible in the hand.
 
Now that I've had some sleep, I'll add a couple more comments. First, these knives are very distinctive. Everyone who saw it, made a comment and spent some time staring at it. Second, I do a lot of tip work. Because the tip was thin, well tapered and fairly short (edge to spine), this knife was a lot more pleasant to use than other flat ground blades, esp considering how deep the blade was etched. Like so many other well-made knives, this one was also an effortless meat slicer. There was a somewhat underground portion toward the tip where the blade actually thickened slightly. I don't know if that made a difference in terms of performance but I felt it with my fingers and the bevel widened a fair amount in that section. Aside from that, it was very evenly ground.
 
OK, who's next?

I PT'd you 2 days ago Del, but havent heard back, maybe your box was full?
 
Knife just arrived. I just did a mondo cooking session Sat/Sun for a company potluck with Dave's knife. Not really sure what I'll do to test this guy out. These passarounds and demo knives are KILLING my diet :wink:
 
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