2nd shot at a workhorse 210 chef knife

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nonoyes

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I have an old Wusthof and a new Masahiro virgin carbon.

The Masahiro is mid-weight but does not offer food release to my satisfaction, and it has a back belly curve I'm not used to.

I am looking for a mid-to-heavy 210mm chefs knife with decent thickness and food release and flatness towards the rear. I also like the tip of the wusthof which is narrow enough for vertical cuts in onions and curved just enough devein peppers or skin orange peels and similar tipwork against the board.

I mostly push and rock. Pinch. Can buy in U.S. or Europe. Right-handed. Sharpen myself. Carbon ok.

Other than westerns like Wusthof, Herder, and Sabatier, and Mac and Misono, the heavier knives I find cost a fortune:

Watanabe
Yoshikane sld
Teruyasu Fujiwara
Munetoshi

I am tempted by all of these (esp. Watanabe) but what can I look at under 300 usd?

Do any of the Tanakas have decent thickness and taper and food release?

Any suggestions or corrected misperceptions really appreciated.
 
Not sure if it is a pure breed workhorse, but Mazaki might be worth checking out!
 
Mazaki definitely fits the bill for workhorse under $300. I have one, it’s great. It’s thick but has plenty of distal taper for fine tip work. It’s sturdy enough to smash garlic and such without much worry
 
The tip on something like a KS is alot more pointy and has a touch of flex
which helps it do the kind of work the OP is looking for.

Generally speaking using a santoku
type tip is geometrically opposite/ is backwards.

So, I'd probably steer away from Mazaki or even Watanabe
because you are looking for something directely opposite in shape
to what they make (as stock profile for a gyuto).
 
Kaeru is an awesome midweight, great retention for me...doesn't have a super thin tip like Mazaki, but very usable with a killer pointy profile. It's sure to impress if you're used to the wustie. I sold off the 210 to a coworker but the 240 has been my daily driver for weeks now. I strop on arashiyama or newsprint, occasionally drop down to shapton pro 2k for like 2 minutes and it slays juicy heirloom tomatoes, onion dice, herbs, or just walking the hell out of garlic.

My blue 2 damascus Tanaka has nice weight but not the best taper among my knives. I've done some thinning and slight reprofiling and used it a ton, almost exclusively for a time before I picked up so many other gyutos. Newer ones might be thinner, or perhaps they vary. Also not sure about profile with 210 vs. 240.

New Mazaki is definitely intriguing, love my 180 petty and suji and they're supposed to be a touch thinner/even more taper in the new profile.

Gengetsu comes in as a light middleweight candidate, as does Kochi. Gengetsu a touch lighter and narrower, Kochi taller but with a killer tip, balance of thinness behind the edge and mass/power. I've got the stainless clad, which has slightly concave wide bevels which offer decent food release, thicker than the full carbon KU. Neither are what I'd call workhorses but might have that blade-forward feeling and improved food release compared to thin-ish mono western Masahiro. Kochi migaki is a heavier full convex grind that I'm itching to try, with that same great profile. All 210s are out of stock right now but might be worth waiting for.
 
Just to chime in on Tanaka and Kaeru. Tanaka KU will fit bill of midweight, no taper, tip will be a lot better thinned. Kaeru also midweight, has the bonus of stainless, much diffrent profile, push cuts very well but the tip is not my favorite, but as mentioned before the retention is rather good, thou the Tanaka gets sharper with the B2
 
Watanabe KU 210mm B#2 is a workhorse with a tall very assem . grind on it. High heel for a 210. It is blade heavy because it is thick above the grind. Good flat, great cutter.

The Tanaka KU B#2 is a little thicker behind the edge than the Watanabe.

Blue Moon stainless clad nashiji B#2 core is another cheaper option. Not as tall in the heel as the Watanabe but the same thick spine. The nashiji finish and grind make it above average in food release. Because of price a # of cooks & students here have bought & use them a lot. I have one 210mm that I used as pass around but did not sell cuz use it at home. Have thin edged knives that would not use to remove a avocado seed. The blue moon don't even think twice. Also like the stainless clad at home.

The Kochi stainless clad is another great performer a middle weight thin behind the edge.

A lot of Japanese knives have a good flat area. Some have a fraction of a mm rise at the back of heel does not affect performance. The Tanaka KU is very flat with a slightly swept back heel.

Have used all these knives to do horizonal & vertical cuts on onions. A laser tip might be slightly better but these blades get the job done.
 
GorillaGrunt said:
Kaeru? Yoshikane SKD? Also +1 Mazaki.
Click to expand...

Shape is more important to me than weight, but I use weight as a proxy as I have no way to handle these knives in advance.

That said, JNS describes Mazaki as hefty but in 210 mm lists it at 156g. What is hefty anymore?

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/mazaki-kasumi-gyuto-210mm/

I take it people find in it a middle-of-the-road shape between laser and a heavyweight, even though it is fairly light?

Mazaki is now on my radar (with the caveat by HRC_64 that it may not be the shape for me). Thanks.
 
HRC_64 said:
The tip on something like a KS is alot more pointy and has a touch of flex
which helps it do the kind of work the OP is looking for.
Click to expand...

I think that's right. For example I made a homebrew and had to cut the pith away from the skins on 8 oranges. I relied a lot on the shape of the tip to slide it just in front of my fingers and push the knife away under the pith. I'm sure there are better techniques with Japanese knives but I always find a way to use that Wusthof profile for a task at hand and might miss it if I get a snub-nose.

Thanks for the [pun alert] tips.
 
nonoyes said:
That said, JNS describes Mazaki as hefty but in 210 mm lists it at 156g. What is hefty anymore?
Click to expand...

I don’t have this particular version of the Mazaki, but on mine parts of it are hefty and parts of it are not due to the taper. There’s a lot of weight in the heel area giving it a heavier feel. The tip thins out a lot (mine’s a 240). I just compared to an old Wusthof gourmet 8” chef’s knife I have and the tip on the Mazaki is thinner. It’s about as pointy too and not at all stubby though the tip is much lower on the Mazaki of course. Again, mine’s a different version but it looks pretty similar to the images on JNS.
 
The Mazaki gets my vote. It's my current 210mm workhorse and I love everything about that knife! I find it a bit reactive though.
 
Jon-cal said:
I don’t have this particular version of the Mazaki, but on mine parts of it are hefty and parts of it are not due to the taper. There’s a lot of weight in the heel area giving it a heavier feel. The tip thins out a lot (mine’s a 240). I just compared to an old Wusthof gourmet 8” chef’s knife I have and the tip on the Mazaki is thinner. It’s about as pointy too and not at all stubby though the tip is much lower on the Mazaki of course. Again, mine’s a different version but it looks pretty similar to the images on JNS.
Click to expand...
I like. The tip on the linked Mazaki 210 may be lower than in a Wusthof classic and slightly thicker (vertically) but looks perfectly fine for the odd task I'm thinking of. Interesting.

Thanks.
 
The already mentioned Yoshikane Skd from EE fits the checklist pretty dang well. Be aware though there are apparently two versions and atleast Bernal sells the thinner version and EE sells the thicker one.
 
JaVa said:
The already mentioned Yoshikane Skd from EE fits the checklist pretty dang well. Be aware though there are apparently two versions and atleast Bernal sells the thinner version and EE sells the thicker one.
Click to expand...
Yes it does, thanks!
 
Kaeru will save you some money. Had mine recently, after the first sharpening it is preety much awesome, its basicaly a great deal.
As for what you are asking, i cant find excactly what you need in EU but i second Javas answrr
 
I just received a mazaki yesterday and put it to work today, it’s basically everything you’ve described characteristics wise.... also, TF Nashiji is under 200$ for a 210 when ordering direct from his site. However, it can be a real crapshoot in my experience, even when providing him with spec preferences.
1+ on the Yoshikane SKD from Bernal being extremely light and thin....
 
ared715 said:
I just received a mazaki yesterday and put it to work today, it’s basically everything you’ve described characteristics wise.... also, TF Nashiji is under 200$ for a 210 when ordering direct from his site. However, it can be a real crapshoot in my experience, even when providing him with spec preferences.
1+ on the Yoshikane SKD from Bernal being extremely light and thin....
Click to expand...
Excellent info. Thanks. This thread has changed my perceptions. May well go Mazaki. In any case the distinctions made have been so helpful. Thanks, all.
 
I would also strongly consider a Wakui Kasumi. The one I got from Bernal is one of my favorite knives right now in a rotation of 15+... substantial spine at the heal and tapers nicely to a very thin tip.... grind is also awesome. I love it for dicing onions as the tip flies through the horizontal cuts, drops through the vertical cuts, and destroys it on the final chop. The rosewood handle version is what I have and I find that it balances the weight distribution just right as there are ho wood versions available from Bernal and EE.... As stated by many, the EE versions of the Yoshi SKD and Wakui seem to be more on the hefty side of things though I can’t say for sure having no personal experience with the EE versions of either... hope this helps. But for 195$, you’re hard pressed to find a better value all around Gyuto than Wakui Kasumi IMO...
 
ared715 said:
I would also strongly consider a Wakui Kasumi. The one I got from Bernal is one of my favorite knives right now in a rotation of 15+... substantial spine at the heal and tapers nicely to a very thin tip.... grind is also awesome. I love it for dicing onions as the tip flies through the horizontal cuts, drops through the vertical cuts, and destroys it on the final chop. The rosewood handle version is what I have and I find that it balances the weight distribution just right as there are ho wood versions available from Bernal and EE.... As stated by many, the EE versions of the Yoshi SKD and Wakui seem to be more on the hefty side of things though I can’t say for sure having no personal experience with the EE versions of either... hope this helps. But for 195$, you’re hard pressed to find a better value all around Gyuto than Wakui Kasumi IMO...
Click to expand...
A bit light I think? Is it not too thin? I like the profile though. No problems with root vegetables?? How does it do with thick slices of kohlrabi? My Masahiro vc won't let go of them. It's not the most tapered knife, blade face is pretty flat, but it's no laser so I was thinking of going heavier. But 1st-person accounts of Mazaki and Wakui have me interested.

Thanks for the suggestion. Back on my radar with the Mazaki.
 
Mine laughs at root vegetables. What makes these Sanjo knives great to me is they’re substantial coming out of the spine, then taper towards the tip. Your Masahiro is likely a stamped/laser cut blade that has little to no taper (I could be wrong having never handled one first hand mind you). The Wakui isn’t a wide bevel knife although it appears to be so, same as the mazaki. The change in finish towards the edge (Kasumi) makes it appear as such. Point being, the food release isn’t the best, but I’ve had no issues with major sticking on white or sweet potatoes, now I have refinished the Kasumi on my wakui with a natural stone progression starting w/ Aoto, ozuku asagi, shobudani honyama, then asagi fingerstones. This progression has helped tremendously with food release. As stated before, I would definitely contact both EE and Bernal or whatever vendor you’re planning on buying from, and have them choose the right knife to fit your needs. Most cases, they will help. Also, Jon from JKI will help you with any info regardless if you’re buying from him or not!! Use these resources to your advantage.
 
upload_2018-9-1_19-59-22.jpeg

upload_2018-9-1_19-59-48.jpeg

Profile and choil shot of mazaki
 
ared715 said:
now I have refinished the Kasumi on my wakui with a natural stone progression starting w/ Aoto, ozuku asagi, shobudani honyama, then asagi fingerstones.
Click to expand...

Okay, that doesn't compute with me but I like your enthusiasm! I have bookmarked this knife.

Seriously, nice endorsement, I am intrigued and grateful.
 
nonoyes said:
Okay, that doesn't compute with me but I like your enthusiasm! I have bookmarked this knife.

Seriously, nice endorsement, I am intrigued and grateful.
Click to expand...
That may have sounded flippant, but no, I really realky like this and appreciate the endorsemaents. Thanks for the great pics.
 
+1 for the Wakui.

Though I have the EE version (actually Cleancut version but they don’t carry it atm) and it weighs about 208g. It feels quite substantial. It sounds like it does everything the Bernal version does, but with added food release and power.
 
JaVa said:
+1 for the Wakui.

Though I have the EE version (actually Cleancut version but they don’t carry it atm) and it weighs about 208g. It feels quite substantial. It sounds like it does everything the Bernal version does, but with added food release and power.
Click to expand...
Huh. Not so light at all! Thanks, I will look.
 
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