4k-ish stone

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I'll second what @KingShapton says about using the 500 > 4K progression instead of 1Kish > 4K. Leaves good bite coming from the 500, if you don't hang out on the 4K for a long time. Coming from something finer/less aggressive leaves a good edge but most of the bite goes away, depending on the steel. With higher carbide steels (R2 for example) it tends to leave more bite coming from a 1Kish stone.
 
KingShapton said:
Would you like to try this again with the NP2k after the SG4k? I ask for it because, as far as I know, the NP2k should generate significantly more bite than the NP3k.
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The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.
 
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Benuser said:
Now the surprise: having it being followed by the NP3k delivers the best edge I've ever got, with any combination of stones, and restores the bite I'm looking for. A wild guess: must have to do with the quasi-total absence of burr after the SG and before finishing with the NP. I'm open to other explanations. For sure, the extra given attention will have had its effect as well.
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Shapton Glass Stones for me, generate some of the most geometrically perfect/flattest V edge bevels I've seen from synthetic stones. With other synths, even hard ones, I typically see some convexity and apex-rounding, but not with these too much. It makes the finer ones like the 4K and up feel 'keener' than I'm used to with anything short of Arks (Which are even 'keener' feeling yet... That tree-topping hair, stick into the cutting board sort of feeling, at 'grits' you don't think should do that.). However, as you said, due to very tight abrasive grading, they aren't as toothy for their grit as synths from companies with looser sieve standards.

My guess, is that the GS 4K has flattened any imprecision in the v-angle from your lower grits, and the NP 3K is putting some deeper and slightly more irregular teeth on top of that, but isn't convexing or slurry-dulling the edge as much as the 1K or less stones did initially... Essentially, you're building on top of a better 'foundation'. This at least is my theory, as I've been seeing something similar as you, and am trying to create an explanation myself for the phenomenon.

That said, it could also have to do with the steels you are sharpening... I love this edge (4K SG HR, on its own) on Tosa Aogami #1 in particular (It's in that perfect zone of toothy, and drop-down sharpness. It will slay tomatoes, and not bruise herbs with equal aplomb on these knives, if doing edge-bevel sharpening.), it's pretty good on Hiromoto AS, though a bit too fine on the harder AS's I've tried and starts to lose some bite, good on hard Aogami #2, it's not quite as toothy as needed on most stainless I've tested it on (Zero bite on Victorinox or Wusthof, next to none on SLD, just a tiny, tiny bit left on Suisin AUS-8A, and it's got okay bite left on Sandvik 12C27/13C26/AEB-L/14C28N type steels for finer use applications like parers/petties; especially at the harder end of the spectrum. Polishes the X50 or X55 that Robert Herder's using like a dream and still has good teeth with their near-zero convex geometry, and is also 'decent' on larger knives in Ginsanko, but still not as good as naturals on this steel.), too refined for SG2/R2 typically, and too coarse for SRS-15... On purer carbons 10xx, Shirogami, etc, it's 'Alright'... Nothing to really write home about for secondary-edge sharpening on these steels (Tooth is better than 5-6K synths, but is nowhere near as good as naturals on pure-carbons.), and the loading is annoying on primary-bevel sharpening. Especially bad on softer ~C70 French carbons. Horrible stone for wide/single bevel polishing.

It also sits in an awkward place for razors, or woodworking tools.

On some steels, adding another step takes it further... Going finer, going to a natural, or backing it down a tiny bit somehow like what you've done.

Sharpening is interesting.
 
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Bart.s said:
I'll also echo the Naniwa pro/Chosera 3K. Fast, silky feeling stone with great tactile feedback like @Benuser mentioned. It finishes a little higher then what it's grit would suggest, but still offers good bite. It's also my most used stone, as I use it for touch-ups regularly. And the pricing at kniveandtools.nl is the best I've found anywhere.
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i'd like to promote the naiwa 2k as the best stone in the series. why? its finishes at about 3k and the kasumi finish is the best of all 2-4k synths. thats why.

you heard first here!
 
imo the glass 4k is way too fine for 12c27/aeb-l (sandvik type steels). unless these are hardened to max. then go for 4k.

usually thhese steels are hardned to 58 or so hrc. and then there is no real rreason to take these above 2-3k.

now if these are taken to 60-62 or so then yes. take these to 4k. and take powder ss to 4k too imo.

carbon deserves 6-8k. otherwise its wasted. imo that is.
 
inferno said:
i'd like to promote the naiwa 2k as the best stone in the series. why? its finishes at about 3k and the kasumi finish is the best of all 2-4k synths. thats why.

you heard first here!
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I've been so tempted to try the chosera 2k but can never justify it as I just feel it would be too similar to my chosera 3k. Mainly concerning the edge it leaves, not polishing.

Also interesting to read your thoughts on carbon. I've found the 3k is a bit of a goldilocks stone when it comes to bite and overall keenness for harder knives and especially carbon. It has put a very impressive edge on knives with AS, blue 2, white 2, white 1, SK, Ginsan and SG2 steels. It's fun to go finer but I don't think you gain much and the bite from the 3k is just awesome. I'm not the best sharpener and have ruined quite a few good edges going higher so I think that also plays into it a bit for myself.
 
Benuser said:
Will give it a try and report. Please note, the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera.
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Benuser said:
The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.
Click to expand...
Steampunk said:
Shapton Glass Stones for me, generate some of the most geometrically perfect/flattest V edge bevels I've seen from synthetic stones. With other synths, even hard ones, I typically see some convexity and apex-rounding, but not with these too much. It makes the finer ones like the 4K and up feel 'keener' than I'm used to with anything short of Arks (Which are even 'keener' feeling yet... That tree-topping hair, stick into the cutting board sort of feeling, at 'grits' you don't think should do that.). However, as you said, due to very tight abrasive grading, they aren't as toothy for their grit as synths from companies with looser sieve standards.

My guess, is that the GS 4K has flattened any imprecision in the v-angle from your lower grits, and the NP 3K is putting some deeper and slightly more irregular teeth on top of that, but isn't convexing or slurry-dulling the edge as much as the 1K or less stones did initially... Essentially, you're building on top of a better 'foundation'. This at least is my theory, as I've been seeing something similar as you, and am trying to create an explanation myself for the phenomenon.

That said, it could also have to do with the steels you are sharpening... I love this edge (4K SG HR, on its own) on Tosa Aogami #1 in particular (It's in that perfect zone of toothy, and drop-down sharpness. It will slay tomatoes, and not bruise herbs with equal aplomb on these knives, if doing edge-bevel sharpening.), it's pretty good on Hiromoto AS, though a bit too fine on the harder AS's I've tried and starts to lose some bite, good on hard Aogami #2, it's not quite as toothy as needed on most stainless I've tested it on (Zero bite on Victorinox or Wusthof, next to none on SLD, just a tiny, tiny bit left on Suisin AUS-8A, and it's got okay bite left on Sandvik 12C27/13C26/AEB-L/14C28N type steels for finer use applications like parers/petties; especially at the harder end of the spectrum. Polishes the X50 or X55 that Robert Herder's using like a dream and still has good teeth with their near-zero convex geometry, and is also 'decent' on larger knives in Ginsanko, but still not as good as naturals on this steel.), too refined for SG2/R2 typically, and too coarse for SRS-15... On purer carbons 10xx, Shirogami, etc, it's 'Alright'... Nothing to really write home about for secondary-edge sharpening on these steels (Tooth is better than 5-6K synths, but is nowhere near as good as naturals on pure-carbons.), and the loading is annoying on primary-bevel sharpening. Especially bad on softer ~C70 French carbons. Horrible stone for wide/single bevel polishing.

It also sits in an awkward place for razors, or woodworking tools.

On some steels, adding another step takes it further... Going finer, going to a natural, or backing it down a tiny bit somehow like what you've done.

Sharpening is interesting.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
4wa1l

i'd say there is a fair bit to be gained by going up to 6-8k with carbons.

i take all my carbon blades up to 6 or 8 or 12k, it takes so little time, and i feel they still have bite at this level. at least up to 8k. and they feel so much sharper than maybe 3-4k. and they can handle it.
 
Benuser said:
The result is simply a good NP2k edge, not different from any other one, nothing being kept of the SG4k refinement. Immediately a typical 2k burr. Different from what I expected, because the NP2k feels less aggressive in the beginning than the 2k Chosera.
It's not just bite I'm looking for, it's the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. If I were looking for bite only I could make a jump from a SG320 to NP2k. Plenty of bite, but an 'open' edge or refined saw that won't hold that long -- only the time before the teeth get abraded. Speaking of carbons here. With some stainless with relatively large carbides the choice and the results may be very different -- think a 19C27 as in UX-10. It keeps its bite even when perfectly blunt.
Click to expand...
Thank you for carrying out the experiment quickly.

Also interesting to find out that the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera 2k.

And of course you are absolutely right about the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. It's not just about bite and nothing else, in that case I would sharpen with a 180 grit Sic stone and I'd be done.
 
KingShapton said:
Thank you for carrying out the experiment quickly.

Also interesting to find out that the NP2k lacks the initial aggressivity of the old Chosera 2k.

And of course you are absolutely right about the little extra above a refined, closed edge, in the terms of Roman Landes. It's not just about bite and nothing else, in that case I would sharpen with a 180 grit Sic stone and I'd be done.
Click to expand...
I only expected from the feeling the NP2k to lack the initial aggressivity I know from the Chosera 2k. In fact, it does not. With one single light stroke the SG 4k-edge was gone.
 
Picked up a king F3 4k that Shihan recommends for edge work. Stone is a small format 185mmX62mm. The feel reminds me of the ice bear/king G3 8k, sort of a soft clay like feel that's hard to describe. The stone isn't soft however as it dishes slowly. It does load slightly as you start to sharpen but continues to release abrasive particles. Seems to work well on a wide range of steels as Shihan suggest. Need to play with it more before I form a strong opinion. I wonder if anyone has tried this stone. sharpening-stones
 
Doug said:
Picked up a king F3 4k that Shihan recommends for edge work. Stone is a small format 185mmX62mm. The feel reminds me of the ice bear/king G3 8k, sort of a soft clay like feel that's hard to describe. The stone isn't soft however as it dishes slowly. It does load slightly as you start to sharpen but continues to release abrasive particles. Seems to work well on a wide range of steels as Shihan suggest. Need to play with it more before I form a strong opinion. I wonder if anyone has tried this stone. sharpening-stones
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The King 4000 is one of my favorites!
 
I've made my mind.

Thank you all for all the input in this topic. Many different advices and stories about a lot of different stones; perfect! I think there are enough reviews to notice a red line among all the replies, so it helped me greatly.

I'm going for the rika.. why
- appealed to me forever
- Something new. Dont have a Suehiro yet and I dont have a muddy stone
- While ouka is compared to as close to SP2k, the rika is also compared to the ouka and is being called a little more refined.
- The price is nice, im asking a gift not buying it myself.

cons:
- The edges arent everyones favorite

I know the SG and chosera/pro are advised a lot. I know these are good stones. Just want to try some of the other brands out there this time. Can't help it.

So if the rika dissapoints me, I was warned 🤡


Ill receive the stone near the end of the year and then have to wait for a knife to use it on. So, if I remember this topic by then, ill reply and share my story about the rika.
 
inferno said:
i dont have the morihei 4k but i do have the 12k and 9k karasu. both of these are muddy. not much, but at least so muddy that they will ruin a razor edge (so you can't actually shave with it). i'm guessing the 4k will be similar. don't really know if you really want this minor muddyness. i guess you have to figure this out yourself. the moriheis are usually thought of as premium stones. and while these are good. they're not better than anything else to be honest. its just different. i personally dont like them all that much. except for kasumi contrast (karasu 9k), cladding finisher for both ss/iron (12k). but for edges?? nope. nope.
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Muddyness ruining an edge is a really interesting topic. Would you care to elaborate on that?
 
Tapio said:
Muddyness ruining an edge is a really interesting topic. Would you care to elaborate on that?
Click to expand...

It's called slurry dulling. Slurry or mud is a solution of metal particles, abrasive particles, and some kind of fluid (usually water but could be oil or dish soap or propylene glycol or some combo). When you are polishing or sharpening with heavy mud, especially on coarser stones with larger or harder abrasive particles, the mud can have a negative affect on the edge. On a microscopic level you are dragging your razor thin apex through a fluid filled with abrasive boulders. It's not a big deal. You just touch up the apex when you are finished polishing or thinning it whatever. Usually on straight water with a light touch to keep it crispy.
 
stringer said:
It's called slurry dulling. Slurry or mud is a solution of metal particles, abrasive particles, and some kind of fluid (usually water but could be oil or dish soap or propylene glycol or some combo). When you are polishing or sharpening with heavy mud, especially on coarser stones with larger or harder abrasive particles, the mud can have a negative affect on the edge. On a microscopic level you are dragging your razor thin apex through a fluid filled with abrasive boulders. It's not a big deal. You just touch up the apex when you are finished polishing or thinning it whatever. Usually on straight water with a light touch to keep it crispy.
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I just found an interesting site about Belgian natural stones. There is information about slurry dulling and how different stones can be used to minimize it. I think that I learned something and can’t wait to put this information into a test.
http://www.coticule.be/faq-reader/i...-to-a-coticule-40a-story-about-garnets41.html
 
I'm also a big fan of the edge off the shapton glass 4k, not too refined
 
KingShapton said:
Interesting, your impression of the SG4k "produces a good edge, but with less bite than expected / hoped for" exactly matches my impression.

I solved the problem (I prefer edges with bite) with a bigger jump, the SG4k can easily do that. Most of the time I go directly from the SG500 to the SG4K, more rarely from the SG1k. This helps to improve the bite a bit, but the stone is not my preferred finisher. But that from the point of view that I've really developed a strong preference for edges with bite.

Your idea with the NP3k after the SG4k is interesting, that sounds like a very good result. Would you like to try this again with the NP2k after the SG4k? I ask for it because, as far as I know, the NP2k should generate significantly more bite than the NP3k.
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M1k3 said:
I'll second what @KingShapton says about using the 500 > 4K progression instead of 1Kish > 4K. Leaves good bite coming from the 500, if you don't hang out on the 4K for a long time. Coming from something finer/less aggressive leaves a good edge but most of the bite goes away, depending on the steel. With higher carbide steels (R2 for example) it tends to leave more bite coming from a 1Kish stone.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I was like all blank for one second reading this - cause I consider for myself that SG4K leaves enough bite, although by no mean lots of it - and then realized I never used SG4K after any other stone than SG500.

Except in one case after Cerax 1K and Ouka. Works well too in my book, but that was with HAP40 so I guess at some point in the progression long before getting that fine, a lot of the "original bite" from the coarser stones was preserved from the relative inability of water stones to sharpen the carbides.

But now I'll have to verify this with a simple steel. Which if I'm to be clear on when to use or not to use SG4K thinking it'll leave me a bite I like like after SG500, I'll have to try Cerax 1K to SG4K, Ouka to SG4K, and SP2K to SG4K. As well as trying a straight SG500 - SG6K to see what it does to leave SG4K completely out and still finish on my very favorite 5K+ edge.
 
ModRQC said:
That's interesting. I was like all blank for one second reading this - cause I consider for myself that SG4K leaves enough bite, although by no mean lots of it - and then realized I never used SG4K after any other stone than SG500.

Except in one case after Cerax 1K and Ouka. Works well too in my book, but that was with HAP40 so I guess at some point in the progression long before getting that fine, a lot of the "original bite" from the coarser stones was preserved from the relative inability of water stones to sharpen the carbides.

But now I'll have to verify this with a simple steel. Which if I'm to be clear on when to use or not to use SG4K thinking it'll leave me a bite I like like after SG500, I'll have to try Cerax 1K to SG4K, Ouka to SG4K, and SP2K to SG4K. As well as trying a straight SG500 - SG6K to see what it does to leave SG4K completely out and still finish on my very favorite 5K+ edge.
Click to expand...
I've tried an edge progression of SP120 -> 10k before. Actually worked pretty good in use. But much easier to just use an SG 4k be done.
 
M1k3 said:
I've tried an edge progression of SP120 -> 10k before. Actually worked pretty good in use. But much easier to just use an SG 4k be done.
Click to expand...

Impressive jump but wouldn't solve my interest in knowing the limits of SG4K. But I do get in between the lines a reassurance that SG500 -> SG6K wouldn't be difficult.
 
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