52100 vs blue and white?

[Kippington]

The confusing aspect about such assumptions, and I'm not saying they're wrong but probably misinformation/misinterpretation on my behalf, is that the finer grained and low alloyed a steel, the more it should resist chipping (not much carbides creating "stress points" at the edge) but tradeoff would be lesser wear resistance and edge retention. That was my understanding. And as such White #2 is among the simplest carbons out there, shouldn't it be quite resistant to chipping? I'd expect it at least to be on par with 52100, for the matter of that discussion, if pure science as I understood it applies?

In hot steel, chromium atoms are phat and slow in comparison to the quick little carbon atoms which zip around and latch onto irregularities in the steel. Chromium atoms move slowly enough that they themselves can be viewed as irregularities from a carbon atom's point of view. Carbon will latch onto these irregularities to create new carbides (nucleation), which results in finer and more numerous carbides over a situation where the carbon was left to it's own devices - where it would quickly wonder further around till it found a large group to join.

Carbon moves so quickly through these low alloy steels (e.g. White#2) that they're known as fast water quenching steels. Too slow a quench would allow the carbon to quickly move out of solution and find a carbide to call home before the steel cooled down enough to slow the atom down and hold it in place. That kind of required quench speed is a good indication of how quickly things are changing inside the steel, and may help in understanding why carbides can get larger in a lower alloyed steel. And of course, as you said yourself, larger carbides will lower the toughness of the overall product.

 

[panda]

of the various 52100 ive tried, i only REALLY like shihan's version of it. it is indeed feels more a cross between white and blue steel.

 

[ModRQC]

In hot steel, chromium atoms are phat and slow in comparison to the quick little carbon atoms which zip around and latch onto irregularities in the steel. Chromium atoms move slowly enough that they themselves can be viewed as irregularities from a carbon atom's point of view. Carbon will latch onto these irregularities to create new carbides (nucleation), which results in finer and more numerous carbides over a situation where the carbon was left to it's own devices - where it would quickly wonder further around till it found a large group to join.

Carbon moves so quickly through these low alloy steels (e.g. White#2) that they're known as fast water quenching steels. Too slow a quench would allow the carbon to quickly move out of solution and find a carbide to call home before the steel cooled down enough to slow the atom down and hold it in place. That kind of required quench speed is a good indication of how quickly things are changing inside the steel, and may help in understanding why carbides can get larger in a lower alloyed steel. And of course, as you said yourself, larger carbides will lower the toughness of the overall product.

Thank you for that!

 

[AT5760]

Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2.

Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?

 

[esoo]

Steelport, Marko, Markin (with the equivalent he works with). Been a while since I've seen a Devin Thomas posted in 52100

 

[user 16756]

Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2.

Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?

I dont think it's at semi-stainless level. Just not quite white level.

There's 52100 stuff out there, just not from places Ive tried. Then there's 52100 from places I have tried but seem hard to get these days (Tsourkan, DT)

 

[Matt Jacobs]

I have always wanted to try a good 52100 like Shihan. I have owned many white and blue steel knives and have always been very happy with them.
White sharpening very easily up to AS with great edge retention and still easy to sharpen. On the other side the worst knife I have owned was in 52100.
it took forever to get a nice edge and then seemed to lose all toothiness overnight without even cutting anything. My assumption is that the white and blue steel knives have all been from very competent Japanese makers where as the 52100 I had was from an "Instagram" knife maker who clearly had a bad heat treat.
It seems like everything keeps going back to the maker being the most important aspect of a knife.

 

[parbaked]

Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?

Alex Horn works with 52100 and his books are open…

 

[ModRQC]

It does. Shi.Han’s 52100 is fabulous. Didn’t try another one. 52100 is relatively easy to find with custom makers outside of Japan.

 

[M1k3]

Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2.

Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?

Way less reactive than White, less reactive than Blue. But still reactive. It's NOT semi stainless.

 

[IsoJ]

Agreed with @Matt Jacobs . I've tried 7-8 different makers 52100 and they all felt different to me. Difference with sharpening, edge retention and "peak" sharpeness. Only thing that was pretty close was the reactivity, all off them way less reactive than white or blue.

 

[captaincaed]

I've had ~4 knives in 52100, and to me it feels more similar to V2 than either White or Blue. I will admit the maker effect is real. Rader's edge lasted a bit longer than Mert's, and Don's. However, they're all in the same ballpark. I think some of the talk is a distinction without a difference, or shades of the same paint color. But then again I have everything from vintage Sab to ZDP, so I tend to think in broad strokes.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=v2, 52100&hrn=1&gm=0

 

[MowgFace]

Hmm ill have to snap some pictures when i get home. From my memory, my Gengetsu SS patinates faster and more than than my Shi.Han

 

[inferno]

i now makle **** out of 52100 or 100c6 as we call it here. but its only for personal consumption. so far i like it. i use reclaimed roller and ball bearings. skf mostly.

 

[refcast]

Joe Calton 52100 is available to order... Couple months to make though

 

[ModRQC]

There’s like 4+ of them on BST every other day and Zwilling Kramer up to v2.0 on top of what is readily available or askable of 52100. I mean are we suddenly calling 52100 units out along with X-maker alert threads which are getting the more ridiculous as prices go up each alert? Not against any replier here; just surprised by the turn in 52100 conversation. It’s nothing rare. It’s just not out of Japan except ZKramers.

 

[ReiHamono]

Reminds me of really high end well treated B1

He did an amazing job on this knife

 

[ModRQC]

Shi.Han 52100 FTW

 

[stringer]

Shi.Han 52100 FTW

My all-time favorite knife steel. Way tougher than my Wat blue. Still gets plenty sharp enough. Monosteel stability. Near stainless. Mine has some pretty crazy patina at this point but it has taken real work to develop it. This is my main knife in the home drawer.

 

[Nemo]

Way less reactive than White, less reactive than Blue. But still reactive. It's NOT semi stainless.

The patina that forms on mine is a very light grey (mainly used on veggies).

 

[stringer]

The patina that forms on mine is a very light grey (mainly used on veggies).

 

[ModRQC]

My all-time favorite knife steel. Way tougher than my Wat blue. Still gets plenty sharp enough. Monosteel stability. Near stainless. Mine has some pretty crazy patina at this point but it has taken real work to develop it. This is my main knife in the home drawer.

It's mine favorite steel as well. Or favorite knife, which makes it favorite steel. IDK... Shi.Han is such a genuine knife, there isn't much separating the steel experience of the whole thing to me.

I like to think it feels dense on stones like a mother******. Don't think any other knife ever felt that way, even other blade heavy units like it. And I mean it in a good way. It feels on stones as it feels in cutting: unmovable and indestructible.

Reactivity to me is way more than A2, way less than your typical Carbon J-knife. I get nice almost uniform blues out of it with garlic and onions combined. It's somewhat slow moving there, but nothing like almost stainless. But I guess you also meant "in comparison" with typical Carbon behavior. I guess it also depends of level of polish on the edge and bevels.

I mean, I made a lot of good comments about Shi.Han in the almost full year it's been with me so far (which by far outstrips my time with any other knife but a few Victos) and really one shouldn't give me pretext to talk about it.

Suffice it to say it's the only knife that I ever rehandled for better balance which was the only off point it ever had (Old stock - Ho handle) instead of sending it to BST which to me is a better investment than rehandling, and that I queried Sheehan directly so that he could make me one of HIS handles, keeping it 100% genuine.

Suffice it to say it's the only knife I ever gave like a 12-15 inclusive edge with confidence, and after a lot of beating it, all I could say is it was not a good range for having it shine with retention - but impressive still. Only time in my life I actually got worried about damage the knife could impart to my boards... not the other way around.

Suffice it to say... oh God... there I go again.

 

[ModRQC]

Sorry but I thinned it incrementally too often to ever get much more than that formed.

 

[rogue108]

I was told the small amount of Chromium in 52100 (higher than Blue steels) slows the overall reactivity but it's not even close the percentages that would qualify it for a semi-stainless. Again this is what I was told...

 

[M1k3]

I was told the small amount of Chromium in 52100 (higher than Blue steels) slows the overall reactivity but it's not even close the percentages that would qualify it for a semi-stainless. Again this is what I was told...

And is true.

 

[Sdo]

I have a Kippington in 52100 and it is amazing. Crazy sharp and excellent edge retention. It is quite reactive. Not semi-stainless at all. Don't think I will ever let it go.

 

[ModRQC]

Don't know that it would show all that much on the kitchen knife end user side though?

Rating for corrosion resistance tested by Larrin as appropriated to typical kitchen knife (with coarser stock finish) for 52100 is still quite low. Quite better than Carbon steels without Cr addition, but much lower than A2 or D2. Comparable to 5160 which has little more than half the Cr content.

Cr addition in 52100 is towards slower quenching/ease of forging and HT, and better carbide refinement for higher volume improving toughness and wear resistance.

If your going to cut real acidic foods, 52100 won't fare any much better than Aogami Super IME. We're nowhere near A2 resistance there. Both however will fare much better than Shirogami.

In general food cutting, 52100 is still the easiest Carbon I've worked with so far. As a mono it competes easily with AS in its typical SS cladding, both with direct reactivity/discoloration and general maintenance. Which I guess is saying something after all. But when I hit onions or tomatoes, 52100 resembles more and more a typical carbon steel.

I would like to think AS retains an edge as well as 52100: slightly worse corrosion resistance but higher wear resistance seem to almost be equivalent in my use.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Three days worth of patina on my new Markin in ШХ15 [SHKH15] (52100)

Based on previous comments about muted gray patina, I'm a little surprised at the blues that are appearing - this is from cutting potatoes, green peppers, kale, garlic, and lemon. I would say it patinas most similarly to my blue 2 Watoyama, but more slowly. Definitely not semi-stainless but noticeably less reactive, by maybe less than half? Like roughly 40% slower, but that's a completely unscientific feeling and also just a first impression.

Am I crazy for thinking this steel has a subtly more 'industrial' smell? While the odor is lower overall (proportional to its slower patination), I'm picking up tangy under-notes that seem 'chemically' in an undefinable way.

 

[ModRQC]

Not surprised at all, slower blue #2 is how I described it myself and you have my pic a few posts above… it cannot get more blue than that.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Not surprised at all, slower blue #2 is how I described it myself and you have my pic a few posts above… it cannot get more blue than that.

I was assuming you must have been cutting a lot of meat to get that color, considering Nemo's comment about cutting mostly veggies and Stringer's reply with the exact same knife as yours with no blue at all. So either the initial blue settles down to gray over the long term, which you don't reach because of your thinning routine, or there's some serious variation even with the same maker.