A Bread Thread

[coxhaus]

I found Straus within 22 miles so I will try it some time. Thanks.

PS
It is listing Wholefoods in Austin TX as having Beurre de Baratte butter. I will buy some of it also if I find it.

 

[Luftmensch]

I think butter should be a part of a bread thread.

100% agree. Bread baking reignited my relationship with butter... From something I barely ever used... to something I now use rarely but with joyous abandon when I do

I would be keen to hear about French butters... With the recent trend of local boutique production, I wonder if they are head and shoulders above our domestic boutique production (or just marginally tastier). I have no doubt French butter is grand... I would like to test some of this 'nice stuff' against Australia's local choices. Australia is solidly a dairy country. We have good quality produce that doesnt have to travel halfway across the world to get to our plates. Some butter here probably doesnt even have to enter the cold chain!

 

[Michi]

I've bought the President (French brand) butter a few times over the past year. It's good. But not noticeably better than some of the other Australian brands, such as Western Star.

 

[Luftmensch]

I've bought the President (French brand) butter a few times over the past year. It's good. But not noticeably better than some of the other Australian brands, such as Western Star.

Western Star is our default.... but we are fairly promiscuous with our general purpose butter. It depends on what is on special and whether we are in Coles or Woolies. We are currently near the end of a block of Mainland butter.

I had a look... You should be able to find Pepe Saya in Brisbane. Woolies has it listed online (but unlikely available in every store). There seem to be some BrisVegas butchers that stock it. I don't want to set unreal expectations... but it is a nice treat. If you havent tried it and happen to stumble across it.... Give it a go

 

[MarcelNL]

Beppi Ocelli makes some nice butter, and cheeses, my absolute fave is alpine butter...cows eating alpine herbs and grass resulting in these flavors trickling through in the milk/cream/butter. There ought to be farms near you where they keep cows on organic pastures with their natural herbs in them...try it and see how much more flavor butter can have !
(Kerry Gold is nice but a starting point IMO)

 

[Miso-Mustard91]

@Luftmensch Pepe saya is good stuff, I remember my old restaurant use to haves box of single serves for functions, needless to say I would use them on my toast haha!

I was working at a fairly well known gastro pub in Sydney a few years ago and we would whip the very best double cream we could order from our suppliers along with some creme fraiche with a little Tasmanian sea salt flakes through it also….delicious!

@Michi present is so-so you’re right, if you can get your hands on some Lescure or Beurre d Isigny, either is beautiful, also can’t go wrong with LURPAK

 

[4wa1l]

@Luftmensch you mentioned things going slowly in the cold. My last few loaves have definitely been under proved and today I set out to make a properly fermented dough. With 20% levain, 2% salt and 81% hydration the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F). This seemed very slow to me. Is this sort of timing normal for anyone else at these temps? I used an organic stoneground white flour so no wholewheat or rye.

 

[Luftmensch]

@Luftmensch you mentioned things going slowly in the cold. My last few loaves have definitely been under proved and today I set out to make a properly fermented dough. With 20% levain, 2% salt and 81% hydration the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F). This seemed very slow to me. Is this sort of timing normal for anyone else at these temps? I used an organic stoneground white flour so no wholewheat or rye.

I wanted to wait to reply. I had some 70% wholewheat, 30% rye, bulk fermenting yesterday. My kitchen wavers between 17°C and 20°C depending on whether we are running the heaters (mostly on the 17-18°C end). Unfortunatly I got distracted during dinner - so my dough had 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. It double in size which is more than I like to let it achieve - so I actually think this bread is over fermented... we'll see. I would have preferred 5-6 hours. In summer... when I do most of my baking (for some reason) i bulk for 2ish hours.

I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce . This might lend some evidence that I the dough over fermented and actually broken down the gluten... we'll see. I am havent decided if I will bake it tonight or let it proof until tomorrow - I should probably bake tonight.

 

[Lars]

+1 Lurpak. Or any danish butter really, it's all nice stuff..

 

[4wa1l]

I wanted to wait to reply. I had some 70% wholewheat, 30% rye, bulk fermenting yesterday. My kitchen wavers between 17°C and 20°C depending on whether we are running the heaters (mostly on the 17-18°C end). Unfortunatly I got distracted during dinner - so my dough had 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. It double in size which is more than I like to let it achieve - so I actually think this bread is over fermented... we'll see. I would have preferred 5-6 hours. In summer... when I do most of my baking (for some reason) i bulk for 2ish hours.

I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce . This might lend some evidence that I the dough over fermented and actually broken down the gluten... we'll see. I am havent decided if I will bake it tonight or let it proof until tomorrow - I should probably bake tonight.

That sounds delicious, hopefully it turns out well. I know flours are different everywhere but I'm always amazed at the 85%+ hydration country style loaves some people seem to shape with ease. Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.

I found out that 8 hours probably was a bit long and I went too far in the bulk. I also had to retard in the fridge for 24 hours. I think if I had baked sooner it may have been ok but unfortunately wasn't able to do so. The loaf ended up very flat but tastes pretty good at least. Hoping next time I hit the sweet spot. Probably could've baked a bit longer/hotter too.

 

[ian]

I know flours are different everywhere but I'm always amazed at the 85%+ hydration country style loaves some people seem to shape with ease.

I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.

Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.

Probably depends on the amount of starter, too. 2-3 hrs is a standard recommendation for bulk ferment in Hamelman’s book. The final dough below calls for 6.4 lbs of levain to 16 lbs of flour.

 

[rmrf]

the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F).

8 hour bulk is a long time at around room temperature for me but if it rises enough (I do 1.5x but most people say 2x volume) then its fine. I've done 6 hour bulk ferment at ~70F room temperature.

I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce

Damn, 30% rye? You're brave. I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.

I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.

I saw someone shaping >100 hydration on youtube. Amazing. I think that for similar protein, white develops stronger gluten than whole wheat. However, the bran in whole wheat absorbs water so it feels drier. I find I just need to trust my percentages and make small adjustments after seeing the results.

I found that making bread (and baking in general) is a lot harder in winter than in summer. It's dry and cold here in winter, neither of which are conducive to the dough.

Dry and cold is so annoying. To cope with winter, I bought a proofing box. Expensive, but totally worth reliable proof times. I also use a container with volume measurements so I don't have to guess on volume. Its still a pain for final proof, after shaping, though.

 

[MrHiggins]

I'm still experimenting with my sourdough loaves. I started mixing rye flour into my feeder (about 20%), which I think works well. Here's this morning's loaf: mostly AP flour, but with a bit of wheat germ and honey. The butter is from a local dairy ranch and is 85% European style. This is the best loaf I've made so far.

 

[Luftmensch]

Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.

Really!!?? If you are ACT/NSW, ambient temperatures ought to be conducive to fast bulk fermentation... Unless you run AC at a low set point? The two things I do to time my bulk fermentation are:

• Over specify the recipe by 50-100g of flour (match water and salt etc to the flour increase). When you get to bulk ferment, tear out 100-200g of mixed dough and put into your starter jar. You can now use this as a 'timer'. Squash the dough level into the bottom and put a rubber band around the jar at the dough line. You can now easily see how much it has risen. I am for 1.25 - 1.5x
• When stretching and folding the dough, watch out for little gas blisters - if the dough feels elastic and silky, this might be a good time to shape the boules.
• The combination of these two means it is imprecise - and I decide based on when I could be bothered... but that is about 2 hours in summer (a bit more after faffing about cleaning etc).

I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.

Not me... I look like a cat that stepped on a post-it note....

Damn, 30% rye? You're brave.

I think stupid is a better adjective....

I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.

I routinely do an 80% whole wheat, 20% rye mix. Like @ian says... I am sure the bran helps soak up the water... so the effective hydration is probably lower than what I calculate.

I havent tried a 100% rye starter! I might give that a go. I am also pretty lazy... I haven't gone out of my way to find a high protein flour. I just use what I can buy at my local grocery... (Aussies, it is golden shore flour)

 

[Luftmensch]

Just came out the oven!

Less ambitious: 75% whole wheat, 25% rye, 75% hydration

Okay ear on the batard:

Okay score/ear on the boule:

Still a room for improvement in keeping tension in the dough. And still too eager with dusting the dough... I have been bitten by dough sticking to my baskets too many times!

@4wa1l bulk ferment was 4-5hrs. Again, my kitchen was probably bouncing around 17°C and 20°C.

 

[Michi]

Just came out the oven!

Looks great! How is the crumb?

 

[Luftmensch]

Looks great! How is the crumb?

Thank you @Michi!

I am trying to be patient! Will update (probably tomorrow) when the bread has cooled down.

 

[Michi]

I am trying to be patient! Will update (probably tomorrow) when the bread has cooled down.

I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than that

 

[ian]

I love the taste after an hour out of the oven. I mean, ok, maybe it'll improve after a day or something, but there's still gonna be some left then anyway!

 

[Michi]

It’s hard to think of something better than a slice of bread that‘s still slightly warm from the oven with a bit of butter and a few flakes of sea salt.

 

[Luftmensch]

Looks great! How is the crumb?

Really nice and spongy. Soft!

I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than that

I'm usually less patient than that! Turns out - baking just before dinner is a good way of distracting yourself!

I love the taste after an hour out of the oven. I mean, ok, maybe it'll improve after a day or something, but there's still gonna be some left then anyway!

That is a benefit of baking two at a time! You can greedily rip into one and let the other one cool properly. I think it is more about moisture content control rather than taste? I find that if I lack any patience, the crumb can still be tacky. I think the bread also dries out quicker?

 

[Michi]

Really nice and spongy. Soft!

That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!

That is a benefit of baking two at a time! You can greedily rip into one and let the other one cool properly.

I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.

Doh! I feel like beginner now…

I think it is more about moisture content control rather than taste? I find that if I lack any patience, the crumb can still be tacky. I think the bread also dries out quicker?

Yes. If you cut the loaf too soon, it'll still be doughy inside and, because it's hot, more moisture will escape. It's a good idea to wait for at least an hour before cutting into a loaf. But, as I said, and hour and fifteen minutes is my personal limit

 

[4wa1l]

@Luftmensch they look excellent! Do you use any particular brand of wholewheat flour?

I find that you get a more pronounced acidity if you can wait for a day before cutting into the bread. I have to bake two loaves or I can never wait that long though

 

[Luftmensch]

@Luftmensch they look excellent! Do you use any particular brand of wholewheat flour?

Thanks you!

I suppose the answer is: no?? I just buy what is available. That tends to be Golden Shore (mostly) or White Wings (less often). I should go on an ingredient adventure and experiment.

Bob's Red Mill has some interesting options that I haven't played with yet.

That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!

I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.

Doh! I feel like beginner now…

Beginner? Nup! You're a talented guy! Totally within your capabilities

Two is my limit. Fridge and oven space are the limiting factor. I wouldn't enjoy baking one after the other. Two can only just fit into my oven side-by-side. They tend to expand into each other - it makes them a little ugly but they are fine! At a stretch, I could do four small loaves, a pair on two separate levels.

I treat the dough the same for one or two. Stretch and fold or coil fold. Both are pretty scalable. But true; vigourous kneading would be tough for multiple loaves!

 

[ian]

Thanks you!

I suppose the answer is: no?? I just buy what is available. That tends to be Golden Shore (mostly) or White Wings (less often). I should go on an ingredient adventure and experiment.

Bob's Red Mill has some interesting options that I haven't played with yet.






Beginner? Nup! You're a talented guy! Totally within your capabilities

Two is my limit. Fridge and oven space are the limiting factor. I wouldn't enjoy baking one after the other. Two can only just fit into my oven side-by-side. They tend to expand into each other - it makes them a little ugly but they are fine! At a stretch, I could do four small loaves, a pair on two separate levels.

I treat the dough the same for one or two. Stretch and fold or coil fold. Both are pretty scalable. But true; vigourous kneading would be tough for multiple loaves!

My problem is we can't eat two loaves before they go stale!

 

[Luftmensch]

My problem is we can't eat two loaves before they go stale!

True that...

It depends on what we are eating. We can easily do two in a soup week. This week our second loaf is looking like it will be going stale.

Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...

 

[ian]

True that...

It depends on what we are eating. We can easily do two in a soup week. This week our second loaf is looking like it will be going stale.

Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...

I don't know, we don't really get good bread from the store. My wife just likes to buy sliced sourdough and keep it in the fridge for toast. Probably the answer is yes tho.

Speaking of staling, I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!

 

[Luftmensch]

I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!

It would be interesting to know the mechanisms at play there!

I don't know about stale... but apparently sourdough has an advantage when it comes to mould. Apparently the bacteria in sourdough produce compounds during fermentation that inhibit fungal growth. Go figure! The yeast certainly don't mind. The slight acidity is also a mild preservative

 

[coxhaus]

I take left over bread and cut it up into 1-inch cubes then I fry it in olive oil with coarse salt in the pan to where the outside bread cubes are light brown. It makes great croutons for salads.

 

[rmrf]

Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...

Speaking of staling, I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!

I think it is important to distinguish between stale and dry. I use "stale" as a taste and is not reversable. "Dryness" is a texture and is generally reversable by adding water to the surface or soaking for a few minutes in extreme circumstances. In my experience, almost all bread goes dry before it goes stale. Some bread obviously goes stale (a baguette from france) and will be unpalatable a day after purchase no matter how much soaking and baking you do.

My sourdough basically never goes stale. A week after baking, it is still fine after heating in an oven for 5-15 minutes. After that, it is a little dry so I add some water to the outside of the bread before reheating. After 2-3 weeks, it is too dry and refreshing the bread requires soaking, slicing, and baking into croustini. However, the bread doesn't really get "stale". These numbers change depending on loaf dimensions (baguette drys faster than a loaf) and if you have a porridge (~2x).

On the flip side, when I used to bake 100% white yeasted breads, it would dry out faster and within a week, would taste stale even if refreshed with water. Doughs with both a yeast poolish and a levain get stale within a week or two so I suspect the stale flavor comes from degrading yeast byproducts. Preservatives or flavorings can probably cover up that taste or alter the texture to keep the bread soft and pillow-y for longer.

I don't know about stale... but apparently sourdough has an advantage when it comes to mould. Apparently the bacteria in sourdough produce compounds during fermentation that inhibit fungal growth. Go figure! The yeast certainly don't mind. The slight acidity is also a mild preservative

I found mould to be very salt-dependent. I ended up raising my salt percentage (baker's percentage) from 1% to a little less than 2%. At 1%, my bread moulds in about a week in humid summertime weather. At 2%, it very rarely moulds in a 3 week interval. I don't really notice a significant flavor difference until below 1% salt. Then again, I usually eat bread with cheese or something salted.

For the longest lasting bread, I bake at ~2% salt, use a porridge, and store at room temperature uncovered. I try and have the bread only touching wood in a few places (I prop the bread up on wood chopsticks). The air flow I think helps. In my opinion, bread stored in the fridge is never quite as good; my pizza (which needs to be refrigerated after baking) dough is never quite as tasty as the bread from the same batch stored at room temp.