A knife knumpty gets his hands on a Kippington

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juice said:
OK, so this has been an extended play with the magic knife (as it was named by my wife, only partially ironically), and @benhendy's generosity has allowed me to learn a couple of things.

1) I still think 240 is too much knife for me. Even a gorgeous, easy-to-hold, beautifully-balanced knife like this one.

2) I don't need a knife this good. It's a mismatch in terms of quality and skill - even a run-of-the-mill Mazaki would be plenty for me 🙃 I also don't use it enough - we generally eat two meals a day, one of which is a standard breakfast, so it just doesn't get used enough. I've been scrambling for opportunities to make the most of it while I have it.

2a) which is not to say that I don't WANT a knife this good, but realistically, it's wasted on me.

All up, a really fun time with it, and a great learning experience, but I think it's time to send it back before I get too attached to it, 240 or not ;)
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So... 210-225mm is what you're looking for?
 
M1k3 said:
So... 210-225mm is what you're looking for?
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I'd like to try a 210-215, I think. My Shun is a 200, but it's kinda weird shape, so I'm not sure what to make of it, but I do quite like the size of it. And something a bit smaller as well would be good (yes, I need a good petty).
 
juice said:
I still think 240 is too much knife for me. Even a gorgeous, easy-to-hold, beautifully-balanced knife like this one.
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Which grip do you use? If you use a proper pinch grip, with the middle finger's distal knuckle resting across the choil, you effectively shorten the knife by up to 50mm (in comparison to a hammer grip) whislt gaining much more control over the knife.
 
Nemo said:
Which grip do you use? If you use a proper pinch grip, with the middle finger's distal knuckle resting across the choil, you effectively shorten the knife by up to 50mm (in comparison to a hammer grip) whislt gaining much more control over the knife.
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Yeah, that's what I use about 60 per cent (?) of the time, maybe 70ish. I do like it the most, but I find myself reverting to hammer grip maybe 10 per cent of the time (decades of conditioning will do that too you, kids), and sometimes, depending on what I'm cutting, I find I'll have my index finger up on the spine.

Even with the pinch grip I find it feels like a bit much. OTOH, maybe I'm still just not used to it.

I would like to try a knife with a good finger rest, see how that goes.

I just need to buy a variety of decent quality knives and see which ones I gravitate to when they're all available on the mag strip.
 
juice said:
Yeah, that's what I use about 60 per cent (?) of the time, maybe 70ish. I do like it the most, but I find myself reverting to hammer grip maybe 10 per cent of the time (decades of conditioning will do that too you, kids), and sometimes, depending on what I'm cutting, I find I'll have my index finger up on the spine.

Even with the pinch grip I find it feels like a bit much. OTOH, maybe I'm still just not used to it.

I would like to try a knife with a good finger rest, see how that goes.

I just need to buy a variety of decent quality knives and see which ones I gravitate to when they're all available on the mag strip.
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"I just need to buy a variety of decent quality knives and see which ones I gravitate to when they're all available on the mag strip." :)
 
juice said:
Yeah, that's what I use about 60 per cent (?) of the time, maybe 70ish. I do like it the most, but I find myself reverting to hammer grip maybe 10 per cent of the time (decades of conditioning will do that too you, kids), and sometimes, depending on what I'm cutting, I find I'll have my index finger up on the spine.

Even with the pinch grip I find it feels like a bit much. OTOH, maybe I'm still just not used to it.

I would like to try a knife with a good finger rest, see how that goes.

I just need to buy a variety of decent quality knives and see which ones I gravitate to when they're all available on the mag strip.
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I am naturally a hammer gripper as well, but I find myself unknowingly switch grips on wa handle knives. On 180, always hammer grip, on 210, neck grip & on 220 & up, pinch grip. It just transitions on its own without me knowing, like trying to reach the balance point.

For pinch grip, the thicker the spine the better, at one point I even made a pinch finger rest, a piece of plastic clamped on top of the spine for comfort. I am surprised no one sells something like that.
 
ma_sha1 said:
I am naturally a hammer gripper as well, but I find myself unknowingly switch grips on wa handle knives. On 180, always hammer grip, on 210, neck grip & on 220 & up, pinch grip. It just transitions on its own without me knowing, like trying to reach the balance point.
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Interesting.

ma_sha1 said:
For pinch grip, the thicker the spine the better, at one point I even made a pinch finger rest, a piece of plastic clamped on top of the spine for comfort. I am surprised no one sells something like that.
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Got a photo of said item?

dafox said:
"I just need to buy a variety of decent quality knives and see which ones I gravitate to when they're all available on the mag strip."
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It's a better method than asking hundreds of questions and then never commenting on them, right?

🙃
 
juice said:
Got a photo of said item?
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No, it kept falling off, I don’t have it anymore but the concept is simple, just thicken the spine with a clip-on, someone should make some to sell to the pinch grippers, the pros get callus from the spine.
 
juice said:
2) I don't need a knife this good. It's a mismatch in terms of quality and skill - even a run-of-the-mill Mazaki would be plenty for me 🙃 I also don't use it enough - we generally eat two meals a day, one of which is a standard breakfast, so it just doesn't get used enough. I've been scrambling for opportunities to make the most of it while I have it.
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That's most people here, doesn't stop anyone from enjoying some luxury 🤷‍♂️

Hashbrowns errrday yo. I had to make the switch to sweet potato lately tho.
 
Nagakin said:
That's most people here, doesn't stop anyone from enjoying some luxury
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Oh, for sure, but I am such a numpty I need to work out what I want, first.

Nagakin said:
Hashbrowns errrday yo. I had to make the switch to sweet potato lately tho.
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Sweet potato is by so far my favourite vegetable it's ridiculous.
 
ma_sha1 said:
I am naturally a hammer gripper as well, but I find myself unknowingly switch grips on wa handle knives. On 180, always hammer grip, on 210, neck grip & on 220 & up, pinch grip. It just transitions on its own without me knowing, like trying to reach the balance point.

For pinch grip, the thicker the spine the better, at one point I even made a pinch finger rest, a piece of plastic clamped on top of the spine for comfort. I am surprised no one sells something like that.
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There are soooooo many hammer grippers on this forum, I'm thinking it must be the default for home users. There are enough that I'm actually considering changing some of my handle designs for hammer grips... so far all my choils/ handles have been made specifically for the pinch.

As @Nemo mentioned, the knife feels longer and taller than it really is when you hammer grip. You lose a bit of control over the knife when you hold it that way.

I'm thinking I can make something aimed specifically for the home users: 225mm length with hammer grip handle....

 
Kippington said:
There are soooooo many hammer grippers on this forum, I'm thinking it must be the default for home users. There are enough that I'm actually considering changing some of my handle designs for hammer grips... so far all my choils/ handles have been made specifically for the pinch.

As @Nemo mentioned, the knife feels longer and taller than it really is when you hammer grip. You lose a bit of control over the knife when you hold it that way.

I'm thinking I can make something aimed specifically for the home users: 225mm length with hammer grip handle....

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I feel like it's because most aren't using as much natural leverage and it's easier to apply downward force in a hammer grip. Been thinking about the other discussion involving push cutting and after watching some videos in the carrot wedge thread, a lot of push cuts here almost look like reverse slices to me (if that makes sense), which would of course get stuck and require more muscle.
 
Kippington said:
There are soooooo many hammer grippers on this forum, I'm thinking it must be the default for home users. There are enough that I'm actually considering changing some of my handle designs for hammer grips... so far all my choils/ handles have been made specifically for the pinch.

As @Nemo mentioned, the knife feels longer and taller than it really is when you hammer grip. You lose a bit of control over the knife when you hold it that way.

I'm thinking I can make something aimed specifically for the home users: 225mm length with hammer grip handle....

Click to expand...


Maybe because many people came from handle heavy German knives? Where grip is completed on the handle.

You are gripping by the neck, it’s what I call neck grip, it’s my default grip style for 210. When I re-handle, I make the balance point just ahead of heel, not as far as Toyama 210 default balance point which is ahead of pinch grip, but 210 feels a bit small when pinch gripping.

When I hold 180 or western handle knife up to 210, I do hammer grip, my hand is completely on the handle, not extended to the neck.
 
ma_sha1 said:
You are gripping by the neck, it’s what I call neck grip...
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Are you talking about the video? That's not me, that's Mack. It was an example of how I see most KKF'ers holding their gyutos.
I'd call that a hammer grip. I personally use a pinch grip.
 
Kippington said:
There are soooooo many hammer grippers on this forum, I'm thinking it must be the default for home users. There are enough that I'm actually considering changing some of my handle designs for hammer grips... so far all my choils/ handles have been made specifically for the pinch.

As @Nemo mentioned, the knife feels longer and taller than it really is when you hammer grip. You lose a bit of control over the knife when you hold it that way.

I'm thinking I can make something aimed specifically for the home users: 225mm length with hammer grip handle....

Click to expand...


How would you change the handle/neck design? Shorter neck?
 
ian said:
How would you change the handle/neck design? Shorter neck?
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I havent looked too much into it yet, but yeah maybe a shorter neck.
Also if you hold it in a hammer-grip, the wa handle needs a better spot to have your thumb. I would probably implement the Tsourkan style thumb depression in the ferrule part of the handle, which I don't do at the moment because it does pretty much nothing in a pinch-grip. I actually use the step on the other side of the handle from the thumb to rest my middle finger, so I've never liked that slope in... but hammer grippers would probably prefer it.
56d3ac.jpeg
 
Yea, maybe there should be a separate name for that sort of choked up hammer grip with one finger above the ferrule.

Half pinch?
Choke grip?
Throttle grip?
 
@dafox @Luftmensch
You need fingertip control with a hammer too. There's a bit of finessing to good hammer work, it's not as inaccurate of a tool as many people think.

 
ian said:
Yea, maybe there should be a separate name for that sort of choked up hammer grip with one finger above the ferrule.

Half pinch?
Choke grip?
Throttle grip?
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Forward and aft hammer grip 🤣
Then there's the tight death grip, which I figure some people here would also call the hammer grip
 
Tight death grip sounds cool 😊. I assume there is a lot of elbow swinging involved.
 
Since we have meandered into finer points of knife design...

How accurate do you think the poll (225mm length) is? I don't doubt people voted honestly. I just don't think people would have controlled for other correlated factors like grind, profile and weight.

My cutting board and space is big enough that a 30mm difference (let alone 15mm) seems fairly immaterial. It is other factors that make me choose one knife over another. But maybe the poll 'averages' over all of that! Perhaps the 225mm length forces some Goldilocks balance between all parameters?
 
Luftmensch said:
Since we have meandered into finer points of knife design...

How accurate do you think the poll (225mm length) is? I don't doubt people voted honestly. I just don't think people would have controlled for other correlated factors like grind, profile and weight.

My cutting board and space is big enough that a 30mm difference (let alone 15mm) seems fairly immaterial. It is other factors that make me choose one knife over another. But maybe the poll 'averages' over all of that! Perhaps the 225mm length forces some Goldilocks balance between all parameters?
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My guess is the poll was quite accurate. There seems to be mostly home users here, where 225 mm really feels nice, and it makes more sense when you consider how many hammer-grippers there are around. The 225 length feels longer than it does in a pinch - a 240 and above would feel overly long.
 
Kippington said:
Hammer grip. I say this as a blacksmith that holds a hammer like that. :p
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And it's not a death grip, in the video it looks quite firm but in use the thumb and first finger are pinching the knife and the knife pivots ar that point with a bit of blade forward balance and the rest of the fingers are held pretty lightly. With a guillotine and glide the Palm isn't even touching the handle, there is a good 3cm gap in there, mostly just the pivot point with the thumb and first finger, the other fingers a lightly touching for control.
 
Kippington said:
My guess is the poll was quite accurate.
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Hehe... In case I wasnt clear! I believe it was accurate and honest! I just wondered if it truly reflected length or other correlated factors.

Kippington said:
225 mm really feels nice, and it makes more sense when you consider how many hammer-grippers there are around. The 225 length feels longer than it does in a pinch - a 240 and above would feel overly long.
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Conversely... maybe it means 210mm is the one true length to rule them all (one length to cut them all, and in the darkness bind them). And the 225mm is so popular because that extra 15mm is lost due to a prevalence of pinch grip 😝 🤡
 
For this home user hammer grip 225 gyuto you might consider making it in stainless or stainless clad carbon :)
 
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