A Shun alternative

[jpashley1]

I am hoping somebody can put me in the right direction! I’ve cooked professionally for several years now, I’ve never made the leap into quality Japanese knives.

I love the way my Shun premier knives feel, handle is really comfortable, I can prep without fatigue, and they’re often sharper than my colleagues knives in in the kitchen, particularly as a budget knife, However, the micro chipping is insane.

My question is, what would be an alternative for me? Something with similar handle/bolster, Western/Gypto style, thinner blade, without the ridiculous chipping (softer steel)? Looking to spend $200-$300 on an 8”.

Pardon my ignorance in advance! Ive spent a lot of time searching and I’ve been pretty overwhelmed by the vast marketplace. It’s been rare to come across highly-rated Japanese knives with that handle style. Thanks for any help!

 

[Johnsmyname]

Pretty much any blacksmith made Japanese knife will be better than the Shun. They do chip easily (Shun). I suggest you fill out the new knife questionnaire. You will get some very specific recommendations and they will all be better than the Shun.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-knife-questionnaire.63548/

 

[enrico]

tojiro r2 210 mm gyuto. Never turn back. I use mine at work almost every day.

 

[AT5760]

This is what I'd probably go for if looking for a Western handled stainless that won't be chippy and you can use and use and use.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...-items/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-gyuto

 

[NotAddictedYet]

Takamura R2 gyuto could be a good choice as well

 

[nopomo]

I doubt that any R2 knife will chip less than your Shun, it's just not a tough steel. Hitohira KH western would be a good choice, as would Masahiro MV-H, Ashi western, or JCK Kagayaki ("Extra Sharpness").

 

[Qapla']

Are you righty?

 

[porcinecephalic]

If you can get one on sale or from BST, the Birch & Bevel carbon gyutos are quite chip-resistant.
If you need a fully stainless knife then perhaps something from Ryusen's Bonten Unryu (Western) series, or one of the JCK Kagayaki Basic knives. The latter are reportedly quite good, and would come in well under your price limit.

 

[aporigine]

I doubt that any R2 knife will chip less than your Shun, it's just not a tough steel. Hitohira KH western would be a good choice, as would Masahiro MV-H, Ashi western, or JCK Kagayaki ("Extra Sharpness").

Both my Shibata are R2, and I don’t baby them. Despite being nail-flexing thin, they have yet to chip.

 

[blokey]

If you like what makes Shun a Shun tbh there’s not much alternative, Shun is pretty good, Yaxell, Zanmai is gonna more similar than not, Miyabi for most what I saw is inferior in grind to Shun. If you want to try different styles other members has suggested a lot of good knives, personally I’d go for JCK Kagayaki Basic for a more plain blade but similar cutting to Shun experience, Sugimoto gyuto is another one I’d recommend, very comfortable handle but blade is quite different, some of the best grind in Western gyuto category
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...aki-basic-series-gyuto-180mm-to-270mm-4-sizes
https://www.hocho-knife.com/sugimoto-chrome-molybdenum-stainless-steel/

 

[blokey]

For tougher steel Kanetsugu Aus-8 is another good buy, the two I recommended above is quite tough already, but aus-8 is gonna be a lot tougher just less edge retention, their Pro series has good grind and comfortable handle. Two more with slightly thinner handle and more expensive, Kanehide PS60 and Yuraku Aeb-l, similar steel, Yuraku is made by Ashi Hamono, same as the Ashi Ginga mentioned above
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/kanetsugu
https://www.yuisenri.com/collections/yuuraku
https://www.chefknive stogo.com/kapskn.html

 

[Delat]

I doubt that any R2 knife will chip less than your Shun, it's just not a tough steel. Hitohira KH western would be a good choice, as would Masahiro MV-H, Ashi western, or JCK Kagayaki ("Extra Sharpness").

My Myojin R2 has a couple tiny deflections but no chips. Never had any chipping with my Shibata R2 while I had it either.

That said, I also have a 120mm JCK VG10 petty that my wife abuses the heck out of and it’s never chipped so heat treat does play a role.

 

[Jville]

Get one of the western srs15 like Akifusa or haryizuki. I had a Richmond srs15 and it was fantastic pro knife. This is the best one imho out of what’s been recommended. It gives toughness and great edge retention.

 

[jpashley1]

Are you righty?

Yes, right handed

 

[Benuser]

If you like what makes Shun a Shun tbh there’s not much alternative, Shun is pretty good, Yaxell, Zanmai is gonna more similar than not, Miyabi for most what I saw is inferior in grind to Shun. If you want to try different styles other members has suggested a lot of good knives, personally I’d go for JCK Kagayaki Basic for a more plain blade but similar cutting to Shun experience, Sugimoto gyuto is another one I’d recommend, very comfortable handle but blade is quite different, some of the best grind in Western gyuto category
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...aki-basic-series-gyuto-180mm-to-270mm-4-sizes
https://www.hocho-knife.com/sugimoto-chrome-molybdenum-stainless-steel/

How would you compare Sugimoto's moly and Kagayaki's VG-1? Was really impressed by the latter. Hard, but easy sharpening. Any idea what steel Sugimoto uses?

 

[blokey]

How would you compare Sugimoto's moly and Kagayaki's VG-1? Was really impressed by the latter. Hard, but easy sharpening. Any idea what steel Sugimoto uses?

No idea, I only tried carbon, good hard steel. Stainless CM has the same grind tho. It is really different from all other modern western gyuto, thick right hand convex grind with a very steep almost single beveled edge, in that regard it is close to JCK ES grind but on steroids

 

[Benuser]

No idea, I only tried carbon, good hard steel. Stainless CM has the same grind tho. It is really different from all other modern western gyuto, thick right hand convex grind with a very steep almost single beveled edge, in that regard it is close to JCK ES grind but on steroids

Thanks! Moly makes me always a bit sceptical. Too soft, easy sharpening, but poor edge retention. A that price level, Sugimoto could at least mention the used steel and Rockwell hardness. If it were a good Aus-10 I would like to know about it.
The geometry you described looks close to my Suien VC. It's perfectly possible to attenuate an extreme asymmetry. Certainly not at once, but over time all end with me as a Misono. The other way around, the same with Sabs and Herders.

 

[blokey]

Thanks! Moly makes me always a bit sceptical. Too soft, easy sharpening, but poor edge retention. A that price level, Sugimoto could at least mention the used steel and Rockwell hardness. If it were a good Aus-10 I would like to know about it.
The geometry you described looks close to my Suien VC. It's perfectly possible to attenuate an extreme asymmetry. Certainly not at once, but over time all end with me as a Misono. The other way around, the same with Sabs and Herders.

It’s very good, nail flexing thin edge, no work needed oofb, @kpham12 likes their cleaver in CM steel, if it is the same should be good. Carbon one is great if you want to avoid uncertainty

 

[Jville]

Thanks! Moly makes me always a bit sceptical. Too soft, easy sharpening, but poor edge retention. A that price level, Sugimoto could at least mention the used steel and Rockwell hardness. If it were a good Aus-10 I would like to know about it.
The geometry you described looks close to my Suien VC. It's perfectly possible to attenuate an extreme asymmetry. Certainly not at once, but over time all end with me as a Misono. The other way around, the same with Sabs and Herders.

If it’s the same stainless as the stainless cleaver, I think it’s pretty good stainless. I have no complaints with it. Holds decent edge and sharpens easy.

 

[jpashley1]

Thanks guys for all of your responses. There are several knives and brand recommendations that look appealing, my follow question is…. So many of the western handled knives in my budget are VG 10. I’m really wanting to avoid that after my experience with Shun. I’m looking at Bunkas and Gyotos, I do a fair amount of tap chop, should I avoid VG-10 completely? Or is Shun particularly chippy for VG10? The VG1 knives look great too, is that very different from VG10?

 

[aporigine]

Thanks guys for all of your responses. There are several knives and brand recommendations that look appealing, my follow question is…. So many of the western handled knives in my budget are VG 10. I’m really wanting to avoid that after my experience with Shun. I’m looking at Bunkas and Gyotos, I do a fair amount of tap chop, should I avoid VG-10 completely? Or is Shun particularly chippy for VG10? The VG1 knives look great too, is that very different from VG10?

VG10 can be a wonderful steel. Masakage makes a good one. Shun et al. have given this steel an undeserved black eye.

Wish I could offer more makers, but my attention span is not very — look! Clouds!!

 

[Justinv]

Most here avoid VG10. Its reputation is it loses a sharp edge quickly then holds a moderately sharp edge for a long time. It also has a reputation for being difficult to sharpen. Some makers do it well and others are brittle and prone to chipping.

I think it sets a solid base for edge retention compared to wusthof and other popular but subpar steels that are rampant in lower price ranges. However it gets blown out by other steels, at higher cost. Edge retention vs toughness and chip resistance vs price vs ease of sharpening is always a tradeoff and you have to pick your preference. Spend more, sharpen more, grind out chips more often, buy diamond sharpening stones. Your choice. Most here opt for easy to sharpen steels and sharpen regularly.

That said, if its prone to chipping, sharpening the edge at a steeper angle via a microbevel is the normal solution (i.e. sharpen at 18-20 degrees). Shun has a reputation for sharpening too acute for the steel’s toughness.

I don’t own a shun. I can’t stand the handle heavy balance or the too curvy edge profile. I do have a VG10 knife but its not in use. It doesn’t chip.

 

[Benuser]

Chipping with new knives is very common. May be due to far a too steep edge — allowing the end user to easily put his own on it, with only a few strokes. Or overheating the edge during production. Most factory edges are made by three strokes on a very coarse grit, followed by heavy buffing to polish and remove the burr. The result is a great looking edge made of fatigued steel. If the original edge is about what a steel should hold when having to endure a lot of board contact, say a 30° inclusive, I first would sharpen it but maintain it's geometry. Make sure nothing is left from the original edge. I would start with a 500 or even 320 stone.
Have seen too much reports of chipping that only disappeared after a few sharpenings at 1k. Well, the problem can be solved at once, with a medium-coarse stone.

 

[porcinecephalic]

No need to avoid VG-10 altogether. Some makers put it to better use than others. That said, any good knife will be susceptible to chipping if the nice, thin edge gets buried in and wrenched out of a cutting board.
I think it worth mentioning that the knives best suited to rock or tap chopping herbs and the like are different from the knives best suited to cutting through potatoes and carrots. Unfortunately, you may ultimately find it advantageous to use two knives instead of one for certain prep tasks.

 

[Qapla']

Yes, right handed

What do you think of these?

https://www.echefknife.com/products...black-pakkawood-handle?variant=37098995187899

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/katkgy21.html (It's at Chef Knives To Go.)

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...oducts/micarta-knife-handle-hattori-forums-fh

Disclosure: I have the Kanehide TK and I like it a lot.

 

[Benuser]

The mentioned Hattori VG-10 is probably the best VG-10 you may get.

 

[kdizzog6]

I bought my wife a shun many years ago and she would throw it in the sink with the dirty dishes, run it through the dishwasher, and throw it into the drawer with other knives and utensils. It looks like a serrated edge after a couple months.

I have to ask, are you using a proper cutting board, and handwashing the knife after every use, and storing it in a proper block or rack to avoid chipping?

I have experienced micro chips from some super fine edges but nothing of the sort when I take care of the knives I use.

 

[Transmaster]

My go to place is JCK I just received number 12 from them. They come direct from Seki Japan. Their prices are very good from name brand forges. I very much like the JCK series. Below is my latest purchase. Their CarboNext series are tough rust resistant take and hold a great edge and are very attractively priced they are a sold unclad knife my 180mm Gyuto is a real joy. The Gekko series is very good I have 4 of this series I have not had any chipping problems with mine but I also understand the care and maintenance of a welded damascus blade. If I have anything really gnarly I get out one of my German Wüsthof blades, their Ikon series rules.

JCK Natures Gekko Sujihiki 240mm

 

[insidiousaudio]

I am hoping somebody can put me in the right direction! I’ve cooked professionally for several years now, I’ve never made the leap into quality Japanese knives.

I love the way my Shun premier knives feel, handle is really comfortable, I can prep without fatigue, and they’re often sharper than my colleagues knives in in the kitchen, particularly as a budget knife, However, the micro chipping is insane.

My question is, what would be an alternative for me? Something with similar handle/bolster, Western/Gypto style, thinner blade, without the ridiculous chipping (softer steel)? Looking to spend $200-$300 on an 8”.

Pardon my ignorance in advance! Ive spent a lot of time searching and I’ve been pretty overwhelmed by the vast marketplace. It’s been rare to come across highly-rated Japanese knives with that handle style. Thanks for any help!

So far my vg10 shun has held its own against magnacut and zdp189. I'm about to get the shun hiro

 

[Bico Doce]

So far my vg10 shun has held its own against magnacut and zdp189. I'm about to get the shun hiro

Misen AUS-10 full tang >>> Shun VG10