About the Rika 5K & Suehiros more generally...

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by Knife2meatu, Dec 21, 2018.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Dec 21, 2018 #1

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    TLDR: Is there supposed to be a trick to getting a Rika 5k muddy? And is Suehiro really into marketing one 5k product under several names?

    I have a stone I bought as being "a Rika in everything but name" -- so, supposedly, basically the same 5k Suehiro; but unbranded, unstamped and without the nice box. I like it well enough in use, and would be satisfied that it has all the nice properties which glowing remarks about the Rika made me expect; except for one nagging thing:

    A burrfection video wherein he experiments with permasoaking his stone and finds that it forms a thick mud; which he says never to have previously seen. (link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506). However, I can't seem to replicate this with my stone.

    I wonder if there's some first-hand experience of using an official Rika 5k-- as to whether or not Ryky's muddy accident was representative.

    It's worth mentioning a suggestive blurb, likely related with my dilemma, from the ToolsfromJapan website, under the 'Cerax #5000' description: "Note: this seems to be almost identical to the Suehiro 'Rika', which is well liked and well known. There is a good reason for this..." (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_572&products_id=2236) -- also, the pictured Cerax 5050 does look identical to the 5K Suehiro I have.

    I'm inferring from Stu's comment that the 2 different Suehiro products, Cerax & Rika, are actually the same basic stone; and assuming that's the case, my own stone can just as easily be another rebranding of Suehiro's well-liked venerable 5k. But, if that's indeed the case, and my stone is actually just a Rika is simpler packaging -- then, where's my mud?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  2. Dec 21, 2018 #2

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,561
    not sure ...two stones from the same company look alike? OK
    are they the same? probably not...

    look at shapton m24 vs professiona
    look at naniwa chosera vs professional vs glass kramer stones

    alot of these are very close to the same but slightly different density/composition/binder makeups etc.

    you're not gonna prove your stone is a Rika or not by this test,
    also Stus cerax 5k is more expensive than the Rika 5k and the same price esseintiall as Rika 5k+cerax 1K
    but note that cerax and rika are differnt families of stone (ceramic, gen2 and traditonal, gen1)

    http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
  3. Dec 21, 2018 #3

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    Are you sure the Professionals aren't just thinner Choseras? The only one I have in both lines is the 400, admittedly, but I'd have a damned hard time telling them apart.

    The Kramer stones are actually physically different from the others, though. So, even if it's just color and glass base, you actually can tell them apart quite easily. Let's say they actually were just the same exact formula as Cho/Pro 400/1000/3000/5000/10000 -- then we'd suppose they'd behave exactly the same in use, despite being part of different product lines, but you can still easily distinguish them as different stones by virtue of their looking different.

    The 3 Suehiro stones I'm talking about here look identical. And while I'll grant you that they could have "slightly different density/composition/binder makeups etc." as you say, you'll have to grant me that my case is at least different than your examples, insofar as yours don't actually look identical, do they? I mean not only color, but also size and base.

    I haven't used the previous gen Shaptons M24, but just based on thickness alone, you know that one can't be confused with a Pro/Kuromaku. And then there's the bases. They're clearly somewhat distinct products, let alone the more important differences in "density/composition/binder makeups etc."

    Well, price is a pretty meaningless distinction, all things considered. If a manufacturer can sell a stone for $100 by calling it something new and putting it in a different colored box, instead of $50 as he did before, no doubt they'll do so happily -- and conversely some savvy, not to say cheap, consumers will happily seek out bargains where a $100 stone is perhaps branded differently and sold for only $50. The Shapton Pro/Korumaku would seem to be a quite good example of this...

    I could easily imagine Suehiro wanting to position their Cerax line as a deluxe product commanding higher prices, hence Stu must also charge more. This is why I brought up the quote: "seems to be almost identical to the Suehiro 'Rika', which is well liked and well known. There is a good reason for this..." -- this, to me, seems like he's saying, "hey, why don't you pick the cheaper Rika over there... it's almost identical (wink)...there's a good reason for this... (nudge)."

    As far as I know, both the Cerax and Rika are alumina ceramic abrasives in a vitrified bond. Tell me precisely what you think is more "traditional" about the Rika vs the Cerax, and we can come back to this. Generations could be marketing generations for all I know; simply calling things gen1, 2, 3, gen n+1 doesn't necessarily denote actual technological iteration.

    In this, you are quite right. I will continue to have the nagging doubt, but perhaps I can avoid buying a Rika only to risk finding out that A) They are indeed the same, and similarly stubborn about muddying up; B) I now have two of the same stone; C) That I just overpaid for another 5K stone I particularly didn't need, because of some extra printing on top and a fancy, shiny box....

    However. If I heard from someone that their Rika has never muddied up like that either -- that would be a point towards my stone being like a Rika. If I hear that "yeah, Rikas are super muddy don't ya know." -- well, in that case it would be a point towards my stone not being like a Rika.

    It should be said that before possibly over-spending on a branded Rika, I will probably experiment more with different steels and pressures...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  4. Dec 22, 2018 #4

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,561
    AFAIK cerax is a meant to be "ceramic" stone (like cho - sera = best ceramic) they are
    distinct from shuehiro traditonal and naniwa traditonal line stones, respectively.

    The ceramic/chosera stones are designed to cut stainless steels, and PM steels,
    that is why they as a family are called "2nd generation", the original gen 1
    ...was designed mostly to cut simple carbon steels...and replace jnats

    That is why it matters really much more for 1K and below grits like 500/300 etc.
    where speed is much more critical than 5k or 8k

    unless maybe dealing with tools/chisels etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
    Knife2meatu likes this.
  5. Dec 22, 2018 #5

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    to be honest both the cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones.

    The good lines are the Gokumyo line, and most of these are either high grit like 10-20k or low grit like 500-1500. or double sided. and no one serious want a double sided stone.

    gokumyo is a process they use. very dense and water repellant. this is their best stones.

    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/gokumyo/
    (drop down menu here on all "classes")

    gokumyo gokumyo is the 10/15/20k supreme line. the best they can do.

    gokumyo debado is a dualgrit stone. slightly oversized. only one side is "gokumyo" quality the low grit one is "regular" quality.

    gokumyo debado ryu line is also a dualgrit one, one side is gok and one regular. oversized stone.

    gokumyo taiga line. now were fukn talking. taiga is a gokumyo processed stone that is 600/1k/1200/1500 and also happens to be very expensive for low grit stones! I bet these are the sh1t though. I might get all of them. or the 600 and the 1k.

    then we have gokumyo ryu line which seems to be a gokumyo process stone and a regular stone of the exact same grit glued together. 600-1500jis. non oversized.

    YOU WILL NOT FIND gokumyo FROM LIKE 400 TO 20K. its some low grit ones 600-1500. then its only double grit ones from 1500 to 6-8k or so and then its the supreme line from 10k to 20k. the rest are doubles. or extra large.

    ------------------------
    DUAL STONE line

    the only interesting here is the dual stone size 1 aka regular stone size.
    dual stone refers to the user both being able to use oil and water on the same stone (why anyone would opt to use oil on any stone that will work good with water is a mystery i dont understand but thats just me).

    the dual stones are thin, 10mm like glass stones, and i would guess these are the direct competitor to the glass stones. harder, better, faster, no soak and so on. they are just 10 years late.

    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/dualstone2/dualstone_type1/

    the size 1 duals are available as 8/6/1,5/1k/600 and thats it. and they are not really dual at all. dual idiocracy at most.
    ----------------------------------

    then we have the debado line. and there is only on interesting line of stone there. the SNE or S line

    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/debadoseries/debado_sne/

    and these are regular fired but slow wearing splash and go stones. available as 8/4/2/1,2/0,8/0,4k

    the rest are the crap stones imo. and why would you want these???

    a good combo would be

    debado 400, gokumyo taiga 1200, dual stone size 1 - 6000, then a gokumyo gokumyo 10/15/20k imo
     
  6. Dec 22, 2018 #6

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    and while you are reading this for the third time, second guessing me then finding out i'm right. i have 2 secret words: shapton glass. you can get any get any grit you want and of the best quality they make. and its available world wide. and its cheap. :)

    here is some french culture for you. remember to wear a yellow vest. :)

     
  7. Dec 22, 2018 #7

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    Yeah, I have their Gokumyo 20K and it is indeed very hard and very fine -- pretty expensive too. I'm curious about their Debado 220 splash-&-go, I can't even tell if there's a difference between the LD-21 and the MD-20, besides size -- Suehiro's product line is very confusing -- Have you ever tried either of those 220s?

    By the way, I think you have this wrong:
    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/debadoseries/
    I think the stones you're thinking of, Suehiro calls their "Dual-Stones", no Debado...
    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/dualstone2/

    Regardless...

    Yeah, I know that Suehiro makes many less expensive, more traditional stones in their 'Gyomu' line (https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/gyomu/), and the lower grits (sub-1200) are typically cheaper, larger, softer, and look like traditional Kings or Naniwas...

    But this leads us right back to my OP -- You yourself say that "cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones." -- fine. So are you saying that the Rika 5K, the Cerax 5k as seen on the ToolsfromJapan site (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_572&products_id=2236), and the identical looking, Japanese market-only stone I have, are presumably the same "****" stone?

    And more importantly, have you used the 'official' Rika 5K and found it to be muddy like in the video I linked?
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506
     
  8. Dec 22, 2018 #8

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    384
    why do you even want this stone?? even the "real" rika 5k is rumored to be a 3k. if you want the good suehiros get the good ones i posted above. they only cost like 2-300% more than the equivalent glass stone. so either get 3 glass stones or one good suehiro. it does not get any better than the glass (imo). but hey its not my money.
     
  9. Dec 22, 2018 #9

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    I already own the 'mystery' stone; and it's alright enough, frankly.

    As to "why"?... I guess it's because the Rika gained a lot of positive reputation in the past and after reading about how nice it was, I was tempted to try it. Then, when I came across the opportunity to try it -- or another stone which was said to be "the same, but without the printing, fancier box, and for half the money -- so I bought it; I used it; it's alright. I kinda like my permasoaking setup, and it was an interesting addition. Whatever, I'm sure you don't mind people buying sharpening stones, do you?

    Anyway. At some point I saw the burrfection video and working the stone muddy like that was interesting -- by the way, if what I have is indeed just like a proper Rika 5k, I can say that it isn't quite as simple as just permasoaking it to get it to muddy up easily like that -- and maybe the reputation it has for producing a lower-than-expected-for-5k polish is down to needing to work the mud.

    So, that's why the main point of my posts is pretty much just finding out if there's some experience of Rikas getting muddy like Ryky's did there... Really, knowing if my stone is just an unbranded Rika or not, is secondary. The important thing is trying to find out why it isn't muddying up. I've already tried a good number of approaches trying to replicate the result for the video, with no luck, but considerable wasted stone, steel, and time.
     
  10. Dec 22, 2018 #10

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,561
    1) The obvious answer is you're stone isn't a Rika ...
    2) Rika is JDM ~$35+EMS stone and trying to save money on this seems to be a fools errand.
     
  11. Dec 22, 2018 #11

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    I noticed this on the Suehiro Rika website: "For this product, we no longer print the label directly on the surface of the stone.
    It now comes with a label made of cellophane film."
    (https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/gyomu/5000/) -- Which now means that my Stone not only looks identical to the Rika, but the Rika doesn't even come with the printing anymore which differentiated it in the first place.

    So I'm thinking if anything is obvious, it's that it is the same stone -- I really don't know what you're talking about. And you've still never said if your Rika gets muddy like the video I linked -- www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506 -- which is pretty damned pertinent to this whole post.

    I'm playing with the stone and I think the trick may be water control and letting the stone dry more than I usually do, but I can't quite replicate it. But if that's the case, I find it odd that Ryky would only have seen this after accidentally soaking his stone overnight.

    And as for the price of the stone -- listen, I got mine for less than that, shipped, in CAD. So it has all the trappings of a fine deal. You really should go screw yourself if you want to tell people how to spend their money, call them fools, and not even respond to the main points of a thread.
     
  12. Dec 22, 2018 #12

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,302
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    have you guys ever thought of just e-mailing suehiro to ask instead of making all kinds of crazy comments online? I feel like you could get a pretty direct answer that would clear up quite a bit of this. For example, the rika is not a 3k stone... they use JIS graded 5k abrasives. Its pretty clear. Also, the rika is white alumina, while the cerax is a mix of white alumina and silicon carbide. Also, presenting comments like "such and such is their s**t line of stones" or "this is the best series they make" as fact is problematic for forums where these comments are read by people with no understanding of the context or the person's background or experience.
     
    M1k3, Xenif, Nemo and 1 other person like this.
  13. Dec 22, 2018 #13

    deleon

    deleon

    deleon

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2018
    Messages:
    25
    Bringing sanity back to an otherwise twisted world, nice job Jon!
     
  14. Dec 22, 2018 #14

    Grunt173

    Grunt173

    Grunt173

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    598
    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    Yep,I was shocked when I read post #11. I don't even have a dog in this fight but his form of speech is truly uncalled for.
     
  15. Dec 22, 2018 #15

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    Is it though? I thought I was pretty reasonable, all things considered.

    All I've been trying to talk about is how muddy the Rika 5k is, or supposed to be, in people's opinions.

    And if, perhaps, 3 5k Suehiro products -- all 3 of which look exactly the same, all three of which would seem to be WA #5000 abrasives in vitrified bonds -- could be the same basic stone.

    I didn't expect to it to get this far off topic, frankly.
     
  16. Dec 22, 2018 #16

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    I very much want to defer to your knowledge on this, although this is the very first time I've read anything about Cerax having silicon carbide -- but whatever. Suehiro's site lists every other Cerax as being WA; only the 5050 says WA/C. And, the Cerax packaging itself also only mentions WA#5000.

    I don't really mean to argue, but the 5000 Cerax sticking out like a sore thumb from the rest of the line-up with regards to the abrasive is odd, no? and wouldn't it be in keeping with Suehiro's usual packaging to mention something about WA/C on the Cerax 5050 box if that was actually the case, and not WA#5000, like the Rika and my stone?
    [​IMG]
    https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/5050.jpg
     
  17. Dec 23, 2018 #17

    deleon

    deleon

    deleon

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2018
    Messages:
    25
    I can't definitively answer your original question but can only share my own personal experience. I have two SR 5K stones and they been underwater for months (except when in use of course). I have never seen the mud Ryky is showing in his video, but then again I don't put much stock in any of his videos, just me, I believe there are much better and reliable sources out there. But, my short answer for you, no, my rikas do not mud up like that.
     
    Knife2meatu likes this.
  18. Dec 23, 2018 #18

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    Hey, thanks for the help!

    About Ryky -- I'll just say that even if we wisely take his personal critique with a requisite wallop of salt, the video itself is pretty reliable evidence of the mud formation.

    Although to be fair, I don't quite understand "unboxing videos" being a thing, either; so maybe I'm just not the target audience for lots of his videos... That said, I was watching the video where he shows off the pile of swag he received from Suehiro last year; and an odd coincidence, considering this thread, made me smile; watch 20 seconds of this: youtu.be/SO2OgMKVePE?t=698, and tell me that his first instinctive comment, upon opening the box isn't funny, given the situation.

    Best I can tell, he never did make that comparison video... In fact, one of the top comments on that unboxing extravaganza video suggests that a good place to start with all his new Suehiro stones would be comparing the 5K & 6K stones from both lines he received there; so the Rika & Shiramine Vs the Cerax's -- Ryky does actually reply that it would indeed be a good idea. Best I can tell, there's no such video, either. Shame too. I'd be interested in that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  19. Dec 23, 2018 #19

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,302
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    For what its worth, i have a lot of experience with the rika and have had super thick mud like that before as well... in fact, it is pretty consistently my experience with that stone and especially single bevel or wide bevel knives.

    (a super old video from me... not advocating the kind of sharpening i did there, but you can see how the rika works on that)
     
    Knife2meatu likes this.
  20. Dec 23, 2018 #20

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Knife2meatu

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Montreal
    Thanks so much for the guidance. I don't mean just this about the Rika -- your videos about sharpening are virtually the best I've found online. Cheers!

    It's a crying shame that I'm not able to get that video to work, :(
    lol
     
  21. Dec 23, 2018 #21

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,302
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    I might have it disabled... let me check tomorrow when I get back to work and see
     
    Knife2meatu likes this.
  22. Dec 23, 2018 #22

    Grunt173

    Grunt173

    Grunt173

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    598
    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
    I just watched Ryky's video again,seen it back a long time ago. So far my Rika 5k has never mudded up like that but then I have only soaked it over night a few times but usually I just soak it for about 30 minutes or so. Another thing I noticed,Ryky really bears down on his pressure when sharpening.I can almost see the walls shake.I don't ever use that much pressure.That could be why I am not creating that much mud.
     
  23. Dec 23, 2018 #23

    Garm

    Garm

    Garm

    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    14
    I can get my Rika to act in a similar manner if I want/need, but I rarely do.
    Watching his video you can see his water management changing from the start towards the end. This is key.
    Contact area is another point. His sharpening angle is what most would call a "thinning" angle, and you can see the stone working about a cm up from the edge in some places.
    Other factors like type of steel, amount of pressure, evenness of pressure, relaxation vs tension in the hand holding the knife etc. can all affect mud development on different stones.

    On a side note, I wouldn't listen to people calling Suehiro traditional and Cerax lines sh1t stones. They are very different from Shaptons, both in how they feel and how they work.
     
  24. Dec 26, 2018 #24

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Dave Martell

    Forum Founder Professional Craftsman

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    13,538
    Location:
    Airville, PA
    I've found that I get a boat load of mud from the Rika when working wide bevels and that's even when the stone is short soaked. For tiny bevel sharpening I see an even ratio of swarf and mud.
     

Share This Page