Actual Difference Between Entry-Level and High-End Knives

[nortagem]

or: How good does can it get?

I currently own and use a Suisin High-Carbon 240mm Gyuto (SK carbon steel), and am very happy with it:
It's light, good F&F, good blade geometry, and very sharp. It's like 10 times better than my "high-end" German chef's knife. Feels great.

The thing is, it's only considered an entry-level knife. So I was wandering, how much better are the high-end knives?
Obviously, they tend to be a lot prettier, which adds to the cost, but when you're slicing and cutting - what is the actual difference?
Are they much sharper? Have a far better edge retention? Somehow feel different? Is the price difference of $150-$200 (or more) between these knife types worth it?


I'd love to hear the experience some have you had with both entry-level knives and high end knives.

 

[havox07]

In the end you are talking about the law of diminishing returns, will a $500 knife cut 3 times better than a $150 knife? No, you will find you may get things like better fit and finish, better steel and heat treatment, or a knife that is truely made by a master craftsman and less one cranked out at multiple forges. If you are happy with your gyuto I recommend sticking with it, it all starts off with trying another knife or two to see what you like, and before you know it you have a kato on the way and an order in to Devin Thomas or something

 

[lucabrasi]

Yes passed a certain point you aren't necessarily getting a better performing knife, rather one with some uniqueness in some form or another. I would say there is a large jump in cutting performance from the 100 dollar range to the 250-350 range, but passed that there are other factors that we are pursuing, often having to do with a particular style of production or a particular smith.

Knives above that latter range may still perform superior to knives within that range, but it will be incremental, and "superior" will be subjective.

 

[chinacats]

My sweet spot tends to be in the 2-300 usd range.

 

[echerub]

Higher end knives can be better for a given user, but not necessarily. It's just the fact that different knives are subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) different from one another. Certain combinations of characteristics will just "work" for you better than others. Some of those characteristics have to do with geometry, weight balance, profile, etc. There's nothing intrinsically higher-end or not about those factors. However, you may not find the combinations of those characteristics until you hit a particular maker who happens to be at the higher-end of the cost spectrum.

And sometimes you find something that clicks with you right from the get-go and you never *have* to go to the higher-cost areas of the knife world. Of course, you may still *want* to

So, some real examples from just my wife and I. My wife gravitates, without fail, to my Shigefusa knives. She had no idea what they cost, she just knew they feel best for her. When I told her what one of them in particular cost, she actually stopped using it for a while out of fear of damaging something pricey... and she didn't want to know what the others cost. For me, I like those particular knives too, but I also really really enjoy using my Tanaka gyuto, santoku and petty - and they aren't pricey knives at all.

There are some characteristics or combinations of characteristics you will not find with more economical knives. However, it might not matter at all because maybe those characteristics or combinations aren't worth anything at all to you. It just depends on the person and what happens to work well for each person

Oh, and one last thing. You can buy a knife high up on the price spectrum and absolutely hate it because it just doesn't work for you, it just doesn't feel right to you. It's not about the cost. It's about figuring out what characteristics and combinations of characteristics work for you. And you just might find everything you're looking for in something that is very reasonably-priced.

 

[ejd53]

+1 to echerub's post. There are so many different factors that go into custom knives, that it really isn't possible to say that the more expensive a knife is, the better it is. Kramers are the best example; a Kramer is a great knife, no doubt about it, but is it 5 or 10 times as good as something that Bill Burke or Devin or Randy produce? No, absolutely not. I have tried knives from just about every maker on this forum and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I finally arrived at the conclusion that a certain maker's knives just "fit" me better than all of the others; they just feel better and work better for me. Your mileage may vary, but cost (up to a point) isn't usually the deciding factor.

 

[nortagem]

Thanks all.
After having bought the Suisin HC and loving it, I assumed I would buy a "high end" ~$300 knife at some point. And I assumed it would be even better. In my question, I wasn't necessarily referring to the more expensive knives out there, but simply to knives within the $300 price tag (which is about 3 times the price of my current knife). Lots of these knives receive praise here, and there's lots to choose from.
I understand that there's no substitute for the way a knife feels, and if I could have experience with a multitude of knives - I'd be a happy man.
However, I probably won't have that options, and when the time finally comes, I guess my decision would be based on experiences and recommendations of others, like many people do here on these forms.
For now, I'll rely on havox07's words - "If you are happy with your gyuto I recommend sticking with it".

 

[echerub]

Yeah, stick with your Suisin HC and really get to know it. Try to figure out what it is that you like about it. At that point, you're really just guessing and that's okay. Once you figure along the lines of "I think this is something about this knife that really works for me" ... or "Y'know, maybe if this or that was just a little bit different I think it'd be even better"... that's a good time to keep your eyes peeled to see what's up on the BST. Then, when you see something that you think will do the trick - that has "more" of what you like, or that has then "even better"ness to it - go for it and see if you figured right or wrong.

That's when you start to get into trying this and trying that, buying this and selling that, and get to really narrow in on what you really like and what you don't.

Just be aware that this can be a bit of a rabbit hole, and the selling part can be the more difficult part of "buying and selling"

You're already on your learning journey! Have fun along the way!

 

[MrOli]

Different steel options, more manual steps and time spent on making the knife.

Take Hinoura for example, he completes all the steps himself and it has a (high) cost but it does not mean the knife will be for you.

If you are lucky enough to have a well stocked knife shop near you I would advise you to go have a look at and handle as many knives as possible.

 

[spoiledbroth]

Take it from a guy with around ~$1400 in sub $200 knives- anything below $200 comes with regrets. Anything below $200 you can expect to require some work if you've got an even moderately keen eye, or worse, good attention to detail. Have I ever received an absolute POS that wouldn't slice through paper or at least ham-handedly handle the task I bought it for? No. But I could have saved about half of what I've spent by just stepping up about a hundred dollars per knife, I figure.

Part of my journey though has been finding out what I like/want/need. This is inherently expensive in a city where I can only put my hands on Miyabi, Mac and Kikuichi, and sadly I live much, much too far from TO to make regular visits to Tosho (otherwise I would). Many of my least favourite knives have found great homes where they are loved and cared for. Diff'rent strokes. I've seen guys with Michelin stars using Victorinox, so I assure you regardless of what you pay your knives will NOT make food taste better etc.

Sharpness is very important but I think most decent knife brands can take and hold a keen (enough) edge for a decent time (only long enough to prepare a meal in some cases).

Is there a point of diminishing returns? Yeah, but it really depends what returns you're talking about.

 

[Anton]

Start from the bottom up
It's all relevant

 

[nortagem]

I was wandering - has anyone here started out with a solid "entry level" knife (Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM, various High Carbon\Virgin Carbon knives such as Suisin HC, Togiharu Virgin etc.), and then moved to a ~$300 knife?

 

[Adrian]

Yes. high end knives can become a bit of an obsession. They are nice to use, but they are also often high maintenance. Despite having plenty of choice, for everyday cooking I frequently choose a Misono UX10. I can get it razor sharp daily enough, it holds an edge well with an occasional strop, food doesn't stick much and it is light and easy to use for long periods. Hard to fault really. Not sure where they are in the price bracket, as I bought mine in Japan and it was pretty cheap as I recall.

For certain jobs though, I do still enjoy using the high end yanagibas for example. My go to is a 330 Shigeharu which is a fantastic knife, but you don't see them talked about much on here. Possibly they only sell from the shop so export supplies are not available?

 

[kpnv]

i've tried a few entry level knives and find that most of them are more than adequate, where they "fall short" is in terms of aesthetics, workmanship and feel. if you just want a knife to cut something, buy a tojiro dp. if you want a knife to cut with feeling, sharpen with feeling, buy a high end knife. whether you will actually feel anything is another question.

myself, i've tried a handful of high end knives and whilst they're nice, my mid range knife is exactly what i want in a professional kitchen. it cuts superbly, better than entry level significantly, sharpens easily, looks great imo but isn't so fancy that people want to steal it and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. i even have a spare in anticipation of probable future price rises. if ever i feel like changing the look, i can swop a handle out. i could buy a $1000 knife for work but then someone might use it for a can opener or even just cut something wet and leave it without wiping. no i'll keep the high end stuff at home. anyway, i think i've got maybe 10 more years before i get around to deciding if i've found "the one". i might come full circle and just get back to my ginga though.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Forschners---// Masamoto carbons gyuto & suji's----//Suisin & Aritsugu carbon yanagibas--// lots of CCK carbon Veg. to bone cleavers--// Konosuke gyuto's back when they were much cheaper--// Joined first knife Foodie forum like hand forged Japanese Carbons Takeda, Takagi, Tamahagane, Carter, Konosuke, Sakai carbon Lasers.

Got old & retired sold most all carbon CCK's, got a couple stainless Japanese cleavers. Bought some nice stainless knives like Gesshin Ginga, Akifusa, HHH AEB-L. Couple San Mai carbon core. Migrating back to stainless which has gotten much better than the Forschners I was using in the mid 1970's:knife:

 

[alterwisser]

I think high end knives are about the aesthetic and craftmanship more so than the actual cutting. To me (still a novice I admit), there is not much of a difference in performance between some of the budget and high end knives. I know that people are torn about the Tojiro DP, but I would recommend those to anyone of my friends looking for great knives at a decent price. I use the paring knife quite a lot when cutting fruit at the table (although I absolutely would recommend to work on that choil, that is downright dangerous) and I am considering buying a Gyuto just for my wife to beat up or when I am in a rush prepping dinner during the week. Sometimes I just need to grab something, cut stuff up and leave the knife in all its glorious mess for 30 minutes.

For me it's about the idea of something handmade much more than the performance. I am in the process of getting my first custom and that journey is as joyful as having the knife, probably. Also love(d) communicating with some of the makers, especially Watanabe and Ashi Hamono. I do work for Sandvik, so using my work email address is always something of a conversation starter

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Forced patina with artist sponge. Sold this knife to a cook friend. Rick your patina came out nice using fingertip.

Snake I'm sure you know already that browning potato's & apples happens before a patina is established on a carbon blade. Also rusting can happen easy during early stage. Cutting everything a patina will form naturally quickly if the knife is being used a lot as in a production kitchen.

With home knives it takes much longer and a forced patina can protect the steel from rusting. I have the Konosuke Fujiyama Blue, it is pretty reactive cutting tomato's etc. Love the profile and heft of the Fujiyama.

I use half/half white vinegar and mustard, add some lemon juice for good measure

 

[Keith Sinclair]

oops wrong thread :O

 

[easy13]

Take it from a guy with around ~$1400 in sub $200 knives- anything below $200 comes with regrets. Anything below $200 you can expect to require some work if you've got an even moderately keen eye, or worse, good attention to detail

I beg to differ, there are plenty of sub $200 knives that are just fine and I would I have no regrets purchasing though finding quality traditional single bevel blades may be difficult below that price point. Im not saying my rotation/collection consists of a majority of sub $200 knives because it doesn't due to my pseudo crippling knife addiction. If I had to build a full working kit of all blades under $200 it would not be a problem & would still be a great set that would be in fine shape out the box - for example : 240 Misono Dragon, Ginga 150mm Petty, 270 Suisin Western Suji, Itinomonn Butcher......... I could play this game for a while

I would say knives above a certain price ($400-500) come with regrets more often

 

[spoiledbroth]

I beg to differ, there are plenty of sub $200 knives that are just fine and I would I have no regrets purchasing though finding quality traditional single bevel blades may be difficult below that price point. Im not saying my rotation/collection consists of a majority of sub $200 knives because it doesn't due to my pseudo crippling knife addiction. If I had to build a full working kit of all blades under $200 it would not be a problem & would still be a great set that would be in fine shape out the box - for example : 240 Misono Dragon, Ginga 150mm Petty, 270 Suisin Western Suji, Itinomonn Butcher......... I could play this game for a while

I would say knives above a certain price ($400-500) come with regrets more often

one caveat to my post: the CAD is something like 0.74USD so multiply what you think these knives cost by 1.25, so in Canada you'd get the Itinomonn and the Ashi Ginga shipped for about 200 or under.

 

[echerub]

Whether we're talking USD$200 or CAD$200, there can still be some good knives less than that if we're talking gyutos. The pickings are pretty slim in CAD, of course. But USD$200? There are some good choices. Not "perfect" ones, but they'll perform well.

If we're talking something like santoku, nakiri, or something like sabaki, then there are a lot of decent or good choices.

We each learn something from each knife we use. I agree that there's value in trying things from all over the price spectrum. Once you pretty much figure out what works for you *and why*, it's no longer a crap-shoot and it's no longer a confusing landscape. For example, I dropped by a knife shop today and 3 knives caught my eye - and that was already after visually filtering out by heel height and overall profile - and then picked them up. I assessed the weight and balance, looked at the geometry from the heel, looked at edge from tip back to heel, and then made my choice - I would pass on all of them. One of them, I should point out, was a rather pricey tamahagane beauty. It really isn't about the pricetag or even the quality and artistry in the knife - I know from past experience that I personally would not be happy with that knife if I got it regardless of its excellence in x, y, z respects.

There also isn't just one perfect knife, even within a given type of knife. You'll have preferences for different geometries or feels depending on what you want to do, although when push comes to shove if you had to choose just one, you will know which one you'd go with as an all-rounder.

It's all part of the learning and part of the fun. A bad currency exchange rate makes it more expensive along the way, it's true, but there are good finds all across the cost spectrum... from, I'd say, about USD$120 and up for a gyuto. That's just based on gut feel and a bad memory, not from actually checking around online to see what things cost these days

 

[oldcookie]

I was just thinking today that buying knife related stuff is getting more and more expensive because of the low CAD. Should have gotten into this back in 2011/2012...

 

[spoiledbroth]

I was just thinking today that buying knife related stuff is getting more and more expensive because of the low CAD. Should have gotten into this back in 2011/2012...

no kidding

 

[nortagem]

I think you hit the spot there, easy 13. With a higher price come higher expectations.

 

[echerub]

Prices on things have gone up even in their original currencies. Partly due to demand having gone up, partly due to material costs having gone up - I was told that was one of the big considerations behind Takeda switching to stainless classing, for example - and then yeah in the past half-year or so the CAD going totally limp.