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I'd like to add, that my next purchase will probably be through JBroida‎, as his fortay seems to be guiding people through custom orders; he has been getting Kono HD's with stabilized handles, and I will soon be in the market for a 270 suji (have to save first...), I also like the blonde ferrules. And, he as well, has been very respectful and helpful via facebook and forum posts. Everyone has their own niche, and position; thats smart business.

Honestly, compairing CKTG to Walmart is unfair. It says that he is hurting others business. This is not true. CKTG will spark the interest of many newbies, who will in turn join forums, and be turned on to higher end product. Heck, I started out a Mac enthusiast. Now I own a Takeda, Moritaka, Konosuke, Watanabe, Yoshikane.... all because of these forums. Now I drool over the customs, and will someday, for sure, step up to that level.....

Point is, we should embrace competition, it is healthy.
 
I don't think it's as much that anyone here insists on an artisan-only mentality, but I think, reading between the lines, people seem to have a good idea of who "oldest knife company in the USA" is that made the blades and feel that the hype and the reality don't match.

Still might be an okay performer. It might even be worth the money. I figure it's speculation until someone takes the plunge, but that isn't going to be me. If I find myself with an extra $170 lying around, I'm buying a Moritaka to replace the one I sold a couple years ago. If someone does pick up one of the production ones though, I'd love to read a writeup.
 
No Chop!

Step up to customs asap!

Anyway: I have none unspoken with Mark. He has always been nice and gentle to me.
 
I'm trying to look at this from a completely objective view...so bare with me.

There are already negative feelings between certain parties (some of which I share without being directly involved) that might be strong enough to dismiss or criticize a project from the start...but let's just look at what this project is on its face.

The 'addict' isn't going to steal business from the custom folks, and is just another product to compete with every other $100-250 Japanese knife on the market...and because there are already so many great and proven products in this price range, it really isn't going to have much of an impact. To be honest, I didn't eve know there was any 'hype' associated with this knife, and I'm on the forums every day.

- Are customers being tricked, lied to, or being forced to make a purchase of said knife?___Not that I can see.
- Are there any claims of it being better than other competitive products out there?___I can't find any.
- Does it look to be a decent knife at a reasonable price?___seems to be.

The following is based on the tones of what I read, and is just my observation on the subject...take with a grain of salt:So what seems to be the problem--I'm thinking the issue has more to do with the principle involved. I get the feeling that he is viewed by craftsman (makers, sharpeners, wood-workers) as an 'outsider' who is capitalizing on the popularity of Japanese knives...they see his primary goal as sales/profits versus craftsman who are driven by passion first, and hoping the profits follow in return. If this is the case, I'm sure the description that he 'made' the knife and has his name on it (not sure if literally), might kind of seem like a slap in the face to them.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but that is how I read the situation. If this same exact knife was made by a forum member, would it be judged the same?
 
The only thing I can say is that he is at least sourcing his own product lately, with DT ITK, Tojiro bread knife and now this.

The complaint before was that he was lowballing on products that were first sourced by others in the game. If he never did that in the first place then I don't think he would've encountered this level of animosity with his product launches. I think he learned his lesson with that one.
 
I sense a knee jerk defense of CKTG where nor real attack is visible, if you read the posts with objectivity.
 
NO ChoP! said:
Commendable, for sure. Although, I am not sure the likes of Takeda, Moritaka, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, Masamoto, Watanabe should be called "cheap". I never said anything about Marks knowledge (Marko?), just his business savvy. But, no one can deny, that he has made it easy and affordable to purchase knives.
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The knives aren't cheap but have been (IMO) cheapened.



NO ChoP! said:
So do you guys not want people on your forum that can only afford "cheap" knives? Because thats how you are coming off....
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I can't answer for everyone but I'm Ok with users participating here of all financial levels and interests.



NO ChoP! said:
These kind of attacks are uncalled for, are childish, and show no restraint. Grow up!
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Either I missed something or I'm seeing things differently than you are because I don't see an attack. Maybe I'm bias though as I don't care for Mark and I'm likely skewed by my feelings for him. Please shoot me a PM if you'd like to talk, I don't want you feeling attacked or dismissed here.
 
No, the attacks weren't on CKTG, they were on people who spoke up in support of CKTG. And really, we don't have to go here, that is for sure. I can tell you a good business model is not to slam and slander the competition and those who support it, but to try and sway its supporters with better product, service, etc... I can tell you, this is not the first time I have been left with a bad taste in my mouth from one of our "beloved" forum gurus...
 
Marko is the one who called me out directly, not Dave.......
Marko Tsourkan said:
I have been longer around on forums than you (NoChop) and I know what I am talking about. I also know knives, and know who knows about knives and who doesn't. And who doesn't know how to sharpen. So when I hear comments like "he knows about knives", what are you basing this on? A phone conversation? YouTube videos? Show me the beef!

I am not being a snob........

M
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Really? And you even put it quotations, as if I said that. Well, I did not.

What I did say is he knows business. (he's still selling knives, while the rest of the community is in an uproar at the mere mention of his name)
 
I'd like to see this discussion turn back around to talking about the knives versus the man. The personal level is getting a bit too much and I'm asking for cooler heads to prevail please.
 
NO ChoP! said:
... I never said anything about Marks knowledge (Marko?), just his business savvy. But, no one can deny, that he has made it easy and affordable to purchase knives. I really don't know about the "fallout", nor do I care.
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NoChop -
That didn't come from you and wasn't directed at you. It's in an earlier post in the same thread.

Yes, there is market for all kinds of knives, but knockouts do bring down price of the real stuff and blurry the line what quality is if you are not knowledgeable with the real stuff.

I don't really care of the 'competition', as I do this for a hobby and from what I have seen, gives me no reason to worry, but I can see many people in the field feeling the pinch.

My Walmartization comment is not out the line either. It starts with rock-bottom prices to drive out the competition, and either ends up with higher prices and fewer choices or continues with bringing prices down even further by manufacturing outside of US. Sounds familiar? In 1970s manufacturing was over 60% of US economy, now it less than 20%.
I have never set my foot in a Walmart store and never will if I can help it.

And lastly, I think investing in quality tools would serve you better in the long run. Knife is a tool and I would rather have a 2-3 good knives then a dozen of mediocre knives. That is where Walmartization comes into the equation.

I don't think I directed my comment against Mark personally, but rather how he does business. If you want to pinpoint one factor that brought down the Knife Forums, this is it.

M
 
El Pescador said:
I spoke at length with Mark about this knife. Bottom line this guy knows knives. Took a good shape and made it out of good steel....at a great price. $170 barely covers the cost of a Stephan handle w/ shipping. This is a hell of a deal.

Pesky
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Just to clear up something, here is the post stating "he knows knives"
so you can conclude that Marko was referring to this post

Personally there's something about the shape that doesn't look like a typical gyuto shape, it looks more like a big santoku, I think it's the width towards the tip.

And while it is indeed difficult to find a stainless wa gyuto in this price range, its pretty easy to find nice western handle gyutos in this price range.
 
Sorry, not trying to create drama really. The subject was "the Addict", and whether anyone likes Mark or not, or if he knows knives or not, he is a savvy business man. I only stood up to say, my dealings with him have always been professional. I have met him in person, and he was very humble.

I think the real argument is my money may be better spent with people who are truly passionate such as JCK and JKI, to name a few. I get it; really. I am a small business owner myself, competing in a field full of big $ players. Its hard.

Now, being that I am from Wisconsin, I know all about the Kringle. They're all good as long as there is cream cheese inside!
 
Capitalism is funny sometimes. In the strip shopping center near my office, there has been a Panera for quite a few years. Very popular place! Then a couple years ago Quiznos opened a few doors down. They have become popular as well, as they are a bit cheaper and the wait is shorter. And what just went up on a storefront two doors down? A Subway! So now there will be 3 sandwich shops within 50 feet of each other. The first was, for the sake of our discussion, the 'artisan', followed by the 'semi-custom' (mmmm, toasted!), and now the bottom-of-the-barrel is opening up. Cheaper, more 'mass-production', much lower quality. The Panera already slipped quite a few notches in quality since the opening of Quiznos, so it will be interesting to see how they fare now with Subway also chipping into their lunch business.
 
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?
 
Boy oh boy, I bring a new baby mouth to feed into this world, take a break from the forum, and completely lose touch. Before today I knew nothing of the Addict -- and embarrassingly the kringle too. And I am Norwegian and from MN!! Grandma cooked a lot of Scandinavian fare, but not the kringle. Is it more Danish?

k.
 
Andrew H said:
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?
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Shoot -- scratch my initial response. The CM vs CPM that was discussed in another thread was not 154. I know Pierre and Butch both use CPM154 (among other steels).
 
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mr drinky said:
Boy oh boy, I bring a new baby mouth to feed into this world, take a break from the forum, and completely lose touch. Before today I knew nothing of the Addict -- and embarrassingly the kringle too. And I am Norwegian and from MN!! Grandma cooked a lot of Scandinavian fare, but not the kringle. Is it more Danish?

k.
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Yep, Danish. Hence the "sen" names, Bendtsen's, Larsen's, and the Olsen's own O&H.
 
[video]https://www.realracine.com/files/play_video.php?video=kringle[/video]


That video sums up how hip this town is.
 
Thanks for both of the links.
 
Ok, since we're talking about pastries...has anyone heard of pastéis de belem?
They are Portuguese custard tarts and they are AMAZING!
I went to the place that invented them, and there
Was literally almost an hour wait for a table.
Oh, CPM154 is a finer grained (powdered) version of the original CM154, if I'm not mistaken. It should take a keener edge, while still maintaining very good durability and stain resistance. Many makers like it because it responds well to manufacturing, while performing at least at par with VG10.
 
Andrew H said:
The thing that stands out to me is the steel. Anyone know what the difference is between CM154 and CPM154?
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First of all, 154CM is the name of the steel, not CM154. That in itself tells me that whoever started calling it that is not a knife nut. After 440C became widely used in custom knives in the 70s and 80s, 154CM began to be used as the next step, supposedly a little bit better than 440C. After 154CM had some problems with quality control the Japanese equivalent, ATS-34, became the common standard for custom knives. Since then the variety of steels being used has just exploded, I suppose most recently S30V was highly regarded but now that seems to be falling out of fashion too.

You could say 154CM is a quite decent steel for custom knives, not as much flashy marketing as the exotic stuff but a very solid performer at a nice price point.

cpm154 is the crucible particle metallurgy product which is chemically the same alloy composition as 154cm but processed in a way which produces more evenly distributed smaller carbides than the "regular" steel. Butch has used it on many blades and it is his preferred steel. It takes a nice polish, isn't very hard to sharpen and holds an edge well.
 
Thanks for correcting my/our mistake with the name. You are right, it is 154cm. The cm stood for the old makers name (I can't remember it right now), correct?
Either way, cpm is a new, finer grained version, made by a different manufacturer. It's a very good stainless, while the old 'cm' was spotty as far as reliability was concerned. The new stuff is very nice. Hence Pierre and Butch using it with such success.
 
I can't say I'm up on my steels the way some are, but I seem to recall a discussion a while back about 154cm. In it I think there were a number of people that had experienced some issues with 154cm being more prone to chipping, an issue that wasn't present in cpm154 for some complex reason I completely didn't understand. Am i remembering this right? If so, is that an issue with the HT of those particular blades or is this something the steel itself is prone to?
 
I'm not 100% on this, but I have a feeling it might be a result of how high they go with the hardening. It seems cpm154 goes to 61hrc with ease, while I'm pretty sure 154cm is more comfortable at about 59hrc.
Maybe the issue of chipping could have been resolved by tempering it down a bit, instead of pushing it past its comfort zone.
I had never heard of chipping issues, but that could well be very true.
 
Salty dog said:
[video]https://www.realracine.com/files/play_video.php?video=kringle[/video]


That video sums up how hip this town is.
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That's pretty darn hip. But now I have kringles on my mind. Let's see if I remember it around next year's Badger Knife Show. That might be a nice (fattening) stop.

k.
 
I think No ChoP is manufacturing drama where none really exists. And everyone has a right to their opinions. And everyone does not have to love those that you do!
 
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