Advice on whetstones purchase

[Helmore]

Hey folks,

I recently bought a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri to get a feel for and learn to take care of a Japanese carbon knife. Now I know this knife isn't exactly high end, but I thought it was a nice way to see if it was something for me. All I currently have are some stainless steel knives I got after saving some 'points' at the local supermarket (most of the Dutch members here will be familiar with the Vivo AH deal). My parents do have a really nice carbon steel Robert Herder chef's knife, which I think has a really nice blade. I never really understood why they have it though, as my mom does everything in hand with a Herder peeling knife and my dad isn't very good with knife skills either. Needless to say, that knife isn't that well taken care of, being incredibly dull, with some chipping along its edge and the handle seems a bit rough.

I currently have hardly any sharpening experience. I recently tried sharpening a Zwilling chef's knife with what I believe is this combo stone: Zwilling Twin Pro combi stone 32505-100, grit 250 / 1000
This was at my parents' place. They had the knife laying uncovered in a drawer and that stone laying around somewhere, unused. Now, I didn't really like using that stone as it was very very easy to dig into it with the knife and I'd like something slightly bigger.

That said, I did overal like the experience of sharpening a knife. It's kind of relaxing and the result can be pretty rewarding. That started my search for some sharpening stones for myself. So first I looked for the cheapest I could find that was a bit larger than the Zwilling. Then I read some more and wanted to get the King KDS 1000/6000. Reading some more I started to hesitate between the King and the Imanishi/Bester 1000/6000 combo stone. After reading some more I was almost set to pull the trigger on a Shapton Pro 1000 and a Pro 5000 set of stones.

Well anyway, you can probably see the trend. The more I read on the internet and the more I watched about it on Youtube, the more expensive my choices started to become. So now I'm here for some advice. My main problem for me is that I want to buy the perfect kit right from the start, but perfect is the enemy of good enough and I end up not deciding on anything. So here goes my long list of options (the pricing is for ordering from knivesandtools.com):

Option one:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Pro 800 €63
• Naniwa Holder €27
• Shapton Glass HC 4000 €44
Total: €140
Main concern, will I need anything courser or not? Mainly for the removal of some chips along the knife edge here, not for thinning.

Option two:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass HR 4000 €50
Total: €134
Again, will I need anything courser? I could switch out the Glass 1000 for the Glass 500 here. The Glass 500 would be €37, making the set €126 and it is actually in stock at knivesandtools.com. Getting both the 500 and the 1000 seems a bit redundant, but I think I'd prefer to learn on a 1000 instead of a 500.

Option three:
• Naniwa Dressing Stone €9
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Shapton Glass HR 320 €36
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass HC 4000 €44
• Total: €164
Seems the most complete to me, but I'm now €30 up from option two.

For now no flattening stone. Shapton seems to wear slow enough to be able to get away with the occasional sandpaper option. Otherwise, from metal-master the Atoma 400 would be €64 or the Atoma 140 for €68.50, both assuming no import duties (which seems unlikely to be the case.) Otherwise €85 for the 400 and €90 for the 140. That would make a likely option four:

Possible option four:
• Naniwa Holder €30
• Atoma 400 €85
• Shapton Glass HR 1000 €45
• Shapton Glass HR 4000 €50
Total: €210
Could go +€5 for the Atoma 140, but the 400 seems more practical for chip removal and such minor repairs without then also needing something between the Atoma and the SG1000.

Option five (from fine-tools.com):
• Shapton Pro 1000 €43
• Shapton Pro 5000 €68
Total: €121 (that includes €10 shipping)
Here a Naniwa Dressing stone would be an extra €7, an Atoma 400 would be €77 and the 140 would be €85. So €198 for Atoma 400, SP1000 and SP5000. This set would assume that I'd use the boxes the Shaptons come is as the base to sharpen on (I'd have to improvise if sharpening on the Atoma). Using the Shapton Pro case as storage and stone holder during sharpening would make them ideal for quick touch ups. Just store them close as hand and take one out whenever you feel like it.

Or maybe I'm overthinking this all too much.

Now, before people start throwing around many more other suggestions. I live in a pretty small apartment of around 25 m² or so, which makes me go for splash and go stones. Any stone that needs more than a handful of hours to dry or needs to permasoak just becomes too much of a hassle given the limited amount of space I have to work with. Maybe years from now when I have more space, some soaking stones may become an option. For the kinds of knives, I'll see myself sharpening some simple stainless steel knives to practice on and for friends and family, but I want to get into carbon knives for myself. I really like the feel of that Herder carbon steel blade and I'm curious what a Japanese carbon steel blade will be like. Somewhere in the future I'd like to purchase something like a Kaeru Kasumi White Gyuto 210mm or a Shiro Kamo 210 mm Gyuto (I'll look into that later).

Now a question: How big is the difference between the Shapton Glass HR or HC 4000? Especially when you start using it on different sorts of steel? They'll both do carbon steel well presumably, but what if I may end up with an SG-2/R-2 steel blade for example? I don't really see myself using anything higher than a 1000 grit on a stainless steel knife, so wouldn't care much about what it's like for that.

Back to the options I listed, my preference would be for option 2, with the SG1000 and SG4000 HR. As I said, not sure about going for the SG500 over the SG1000 here. Going for the SG500 would give me an easier time with heavier repairs, but those may not happen that often (hopefully, though given the way knives are treated at my parents' place, who knows). Learning on an SG1000 instead of an SG500 seems more ideal as well though. This consideration would make option three seem much more well rounded, but I'm not sure of the extra 30 euros is worth it for me as of now. That's the same reason why any of the sets with one of the Atoma's just isn't for me, way too expensive for my use case. I bought a €45 knife, to then use €200 in sharpening tools seems a bit odd to me. Maybe I should just get a Naniwa Nagura, Naniwa Pro 800 and Naniwa holder for €96 total and call it a day. Ugh. So hard to choose.

Wow. That turned into a really really long post. Hopefully it's not too long. Also, it may be helpful if there was also some kind of questionnaire such as in the knife section. For that reason, ask away on anything I may not have covered.

I'm mainly interested in hearing your opinions on what set to choose and why you'd recommend me that. Or maybe you can offer an alternative option. Readily available shops for me would be knivesandtools.com, fine-tools.com and dictum.de. Anyway, thanks for any and all advice you may have.

 

[M1k3]

Hmmm... Glass 120 or 220, 500 (double thick if you can swing it) and 4k?

For sharpening you can definitely go from the Glass 500 to 4k. The 500 stone can be a finisher for softer steels. You could hold off on the 120 or 220 for now if you don't have big chips to repair. I'm recommending the Glass stones because of the possibility of sharpening R2.

 

[esoo]

The Tojiro Nakiri is a pretty robust knife - unless you start taking to frozen food, I wouldn't worry about chipping it. I have the grinding finish version of the same knife and it is abused (spatchcocking a chicken anyone?) and not chipped.

I might suggest the following:
Shapton Pro 1K
Shapton Glass 4K.

The Shapton Pro is a pretty decent stone and you can do a lot of heavy work with it. The case works as the stone holder - and it holds the Glass Stone perfectly. This will set you up for pretty much anything except thinning and major repair. Later you can consider adding something like the Glass 500 extra thick if needed.

 

[Simme]

If i had to start over it would be with a mix of shapton glass/pro or sigmas.
so as Esoo said get the shapton pro 1k + a finishing stone some options here
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/stone-review-thread-3-6k-synthetics.46585/
Then atoma 400 and the double thick 500 glass when needed.

Another option is Dmd vetrified diamond stones from alibaba.

They are hard stones, and i don't know if i would like them when i was starting out, but now i love them. They come in 1000, 3000, 6000 and 12000.

 

[Carl Kotte]

To start out I would buy only one stone: Shapton pro 1k. The box doubles as a stoneholder. It’s fast enough at removing steel so you can use it for repair work. And it forces you to learn pressure control and technique. No need to buy too much stuff when starting out. Good luck!

 

[adam92]

I think holder is not necessary, if you care about money, sometimes i use table cloth & works fine for me, i think start learning from 1k might be better, 1k can repair minor chips as well, atoma 400 is very good choice for thinning & flatten others stone.

My advice would be 400 & 1000 for start...

 

[kayman67]

Problem is, it doesn't work like that. To put things in perspective, you want to buy the Porsche, but you can't drive. I know all those Shaptons look great, but they don't really allow to experience the most important things the same way.
Skipping steps will hurt your understanding and development.
So, I'm thinking some middle of the roade here, something like King 1000 (maybe even 800 or maybe Bester 1200), Rika 5000, cheap stone holder if necessary (works exactly the same, saves you some money) and a double diamond plate.

 

[Helmore]

So, I'm thinking some middle of the roade here, something like King 1000 (maybe even 800 or maybe Bester 1200), Rika 5000, cheap stone holder if necessary (works exactly the same, saves you some money) and a double diamond plate.

I'm specifically opting for splash and go, as my really small apartment makes going for a soaking stone rather impractical. A splash and go also seems more convenient for quick touch ups. I do understand your advice about trying to learn in a Porsche though.

Thanks for all the other advice given thus far. I'll comment on what the other have said when I have the time later today.

 

[mpier]

I’ve only been sharpening knives for about six months or so and I went down the same rabbit hole as far as what stones to get. When I finally came up for air and after trying some different stones my friends had I came to the realization that I wanted good stones that would last a long time. I ended up getting the original Naniwa Chosera with the base attached. They are thick, hard and I think it is important to have a base or holder for hand clearance. After using other stones nothing compares to these stones. You only really need three of them the ss400 for rough grind the ss800 will take you all the way to a 1500 with less pressure and the ss3000 which may be one the best stones ever made. If you do get these stones a cheap rubber mat will keep them from sliding around, and they do take a little more care a far as keeping them clean and letting them dry naturally. They all come with a cleaning stone and if you use it to buff out your lead edges they will not dish on you. I have now sharpened about 80 knives on my 800 and 3000 and they are still flat. I have become a little addicted to sharpening and I have picked up the entire set of Chosera except the 10000 got the 8000 Snow White instead. If you really want that ultra sharp glowing edge you my want to pick up a strop as well.

 

[adam92]

If convenient is important than go for th e shapton pro or glass, i have pro but i heard glass is different level. Much more better than pro, I'll buy glass in future.

 

[Ruso]

You probably want something in 300-600 grit as well - especially if you are planning on sharpening dull and cheap knives for practice purposes. This will teach you much more and much quicker about the burr than 1K will.

 

[adam92]

You probably want something in 300-600 grit as well - especially if you are planning on sharpening dull and cheap knives for practice purposes. This will teach you much more and much quicker about the burr than 1K will.

But also will lose more steel if sharpen too much...

 

[Cliff]

I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry

 

[kayman67]

I'm specifically opting for splash and go, as my really small apartment makes going for a soaking stone rather impractical. A splash and go also seems more convenient for quick touch ups. I do understand your advice about trying to learn in a Porsche though.

Thanks for all the other advice given thus far. I'll comment on what the other have said when I have the time later today.

At least start with one and learn. Sell it later if you have to. You don't lose money, you gain experience at a very reasonable price (no one says to buy big and you don't see that very often). One tupperware for one stone is manageable. I understand the desire. It's that things get so much better following the right path. And you seem like you aim high, so even more of a good reason.
Here, we gain nothing. Most of us will get back to our stones at a certain level for personal needs and/or preferences, most of us have or had many types and so on. Some of us deal with people that are starting to learn and see different outcomes. It's definitely a process. You develop skill. Skill that is shaped by interactions.
At the end of the day, anything will/might work. Anything you mentioned will sharpen a knife. You decide how. Or how important it is to you.

 

[Ruso]

But also will lose more steel if sharpen too much...

Thats why you practice on cheap dull knives that you and your family have lying around in the drawers already.

I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry

I have Pro 1K and 320 - I would say they dry similarly to Naniwa Chosera (Pro). I think this is pretty fast drying but I do not have SG to compare.

 

[adam92]

I have the glass stones in an apartment -- they are the most practical you can get and excellent. I'm curious for those who use the pro: how quickly do they dry? That's at least as big a part of the practicality of the glass stones as the splash and go. I have a Chosera that's basically splash and go, but it takes much longer to dry

My pro dry pretty fast, 320 & 2k.

 

[Famima]

Interesting debate. I actually started off with one of the options mentioned - a single Shapton 1000 (pro or whatever it was called before the latest iteration - my one is thicker and bonded to a ceramic base but comes in the same case and appears to have the same formulation). I've learnt to love it but, on reflection, I'd do two things differently and add one observation. First, having since acquired a range of other stones, including a Cerax 1000, I would have been better off by quite some way starting on the Cerax due to the amount of feedback you get from it. I only really started to get on with the shapton once I'd started using other stones. The second is that I would have bought an Atoma 400 from the outset, this is just such a useful thing to have (flattening, fixing chips, etc.) and very space efficient. The observation is that, yes, splash and go is easy, but soaking the Cerax for 10-15mins in the kitchen sink or basin before using is not challenging - it's not like you need a dedicated tank for hours of soaking. I'd relax this requirement in favour of getting an easier to learn on stone to start.

 

[inferno]

i suggest shapton glass 1k and 4k, or 500double thick and 3k.

glass dries very very fast. but the shapton pros dry fast too. naniwa pros seems to dry fast but if you put them away with other stones you will quickly find out they were only dry on the surface.

i used the 3k and cheap diamond plate (300ish grit) yesterday on a global. the transition is pretty seamless between these imo. i think it took me about a minute to remove the diamond scratches with the 3k.

when done i just wiped them off and put them away in a locker.

 

[inferno]

also just because a stone is hard does not mean it will be hard to use.
one of my buddies learnt to sharpen with shaptons pros and glass.

i have lent him pretty much all stones i have ever owned for him to try out and he still thinks those 2 lines are the best just because they are hard,
so he feels exactly whats going on. he thinks of it like an on-off switch without any mush in between.

and i kinda agree. sure we all have different preferences. but imo a harder stone will not be harder to use nor harder to learn on.
they just feel different.

 

[esoo]

I think the only stones that would be hard to learn on would be stones like the Shapton Pro 5k - that stone is so hard it feels like glass with little to no feedback. You can see swarf forming, but there is zero feel. The Shapton Glass 6K has more feedback.

 

[inferno]

you should try the spyderco UF, not only does it feels like a piece of glass it abrades at the same speed

 

[Helmore]

Well, you have all given me a bit to think on. I'm now leaning towards going for one ~1k stone to learn on. I can get everything else at a later time. It's just really tempting to go for two stones at knivesandtools because of their combideal thingie, but that's probably the point (makes you spend more money there).

I'd relax this requirement in favour of getting an easier to learn on stone to start.

Soaking for say 15 minutes isn't really a problem, it's the drying afterwards. If the stone is fine with drying on a dish rack for up to 12 hours I should be able to manage fine. The air in my apartment can generally be pretty dry, as I let my dishes drip dry on a rack after washing and that happens pretty quickly. Permasoak is right out though. Splash and go is just much more convenient and thus likely to be used much more frequently. That will help with quicker learning.

That Atoma though. It feels hard to justify the cost at €77 for the 400 or €85 for the 140 when I don't really have the experience to say whether having one will really be worth it. Pretty much everyone recommends getting a good diamond plate for lapping though. It's such a pity that shipping costs from JKI are higher than their diamond flattening plate. $55 seems much more palatable, but shipping cost is $58.78 and that makes it cheaper to get an Atoma.

This would be much easier if there weren't so many objective and subjective variables involved and everyone would then just agree on one approach to start with. That would make this a lot less frustrating, but also a lot less fun.

 

[M1k3]

If you go Shapton, they dish slowly. So you don't need to rush on the lapping plate. Going 1 stone now is fine. Whether that's a 1k or 500 grit stone. You could always strop on newspaper or some other cheap material for refinement. There's many ways to go about it. The Glass stones are pretty splash and go. And dry quite fast. 10-20 mins or so. If you do go with Shapton Glass, I'd definitely figure out a stone holder solution.

 

[Ruso]

You can wait on Atoma, even though its the best way to keep the stones flat. Using flat surface and sandpaper or SiC grit works very well to flatten the stones. Its not as at hand and much messier solution, so keep it in mind.

Getting dish resistant stones is another good half-solution as people had mentioned already.

 

[inferno]

Well, you have all given me a bit to think on. I'm now leaning towards going for one ~1k stone to learn on. I can get everything else at a later time. It's just really tempting to go for two stones at knivesandtools because of their combideal thingie, but that's probably the point (makes you spend more money there).

if you get a 1k to start with i can almost guarantee it you will be getting a finer one almost immediately. the 1k stones dont really make those sharp killer edges to be honest. you can do a lot with just a 1k and its basically up to you and your skill level. but it will never rival a 3 or 4 or 6k for sharpness. it just wont happen.

 

[kayman67]

What exactly is a sharp killer edge? Would a shaving edge after Atoma 140 qualify?

 

[inferno]

nope

 

[kayman67]

Why do you think so? What would make the edge be killer sharp?

 

[inferno]

here one can see the differences between different grits.
https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/04/16/the-honing-progression/
and we can see the results of an atoma 400 (quite far down the page) to compare with the regular stones,
at the exact same magnification. so its quite easy to compare.
https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/

 

[inferno]

Why do you think so? What would make the edge be killer sharp?

that it looks like this

and not like this (atoma 400)