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DavidPF said:
It's absolutely an excellent argument; it sounds just as good as yours does (i.e. worthless), it's just as easy to prove as yours is (i.e. impossible), and that's the point.

Not because of anything wrong with either Brady or Rockne, but because of the complete futility of trying to say who's the best ever. (Especially if the true best ever was a cornerback or offensive tackle)
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This is certainly a thing.

JJ Watt, before the injuries set in, was so ridiculously good that you basically can't even compare him to other defensive players at the time. If there was a stat, he dominated it, and he passed the eye test as well. He defended the run, he rushed the passer, he caused turnovers and he racked up tackles. Darrel Revis, during his 4 or so year peak, was as disruptive as one can be at corner. He was so good that he didn't pick off all that many passes, simply because QBs never had an opening on a man he was defending, but advanced stats and play-by-play tracking showed him to be definitively, massively better than everyone else, and again, that passed the eye test. Dwight Stephenson, when he was center for the Dolphins, was so ridiculous that, despite being small, nose tackles would break their own schemes to shade off him to not be embarrassed.

That said, the QB is the most impactful position on the field/court/rink for any large team sport. They literally touch the ball on nearly half the plays (all offense plays except tricks, and most teams don't run more than a couple of those a season at most), and are responsable for most of the active decision-making on most of those plays. That's just not true for any other sport. That doesn't mean that the QB is the best player automatically, but it is hard to argue against the value of someone who touches the ball that often. Skill, with everything that encompasses - talent, availability, leadership (which is a ******** dump, but I digress), etc., is part of the "value" equation, but the other part is opportunity. And the QB has many more opportunities to impact a game, positively or negatively, than any other single player in a team sport, compared to the opportunities of those around them. And those opps are visible, because the QB has the ball.
 
Keith Sinclair said:
Yes Brady didn't do the hiring but he did make the pitch for Brown & Fournette when he came available.

Brady's last year at Patriots he didn't have receivers that could get open. He had taken cuts in pay to stay under cap so team could be better. They still had winning season, but they were not a elite team & Brady knew it. He really missed Gronk & they dropped Brown off the roster because couldn't keep he stupid mouth shut.

He has been around 20 years & is football smart. He knew that TB had a lot of talent on both sides of the ball that's why he went there.

Talking heads wondered why because they had a losing season. Brady saw it. Their defense was ranked toward end of the season.

Is Brady great because of his rings & athletic ability. Mahomes is much better physical athlete than Brady. He knows what it takes to win it's a team sport without a good team your squat. He would have been knocked out off the playoffs early if not for that superb defense.

Defense won both Saints & GB victories. Brady threw 3 picks in GB game. Not because of QB the defense is why I thought they had chance to beat the Chiefs. Those two weeks they prepared with good game plan & Brady drilled into their heads that they were going to win the SB. That's leadership.
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Brown was terrible with the Pats, and he was nothing but a barely above average possession receiver with the Bucs this year. The fact that he scored in the SB doesn't change that.

Gronk was a more-or-less average tight end this year. He was barely a shadow of the GRONK of ages past.

Fournette was a more-or-less average running back this year, he looked pretty good against the Chiefs, but that's a conflux of a good game plan by the Bucs, a good game by Fournette, and the fact that the Chiefs were and are a terrible rush defense. They are just usually winning by enough points that they don't face as much rushing.

All of that said, advanced stats like those at Football Outsiders already picked the Bucs as slightly better then the Chiefs going into the game, and mostly because of their vastly superior defense.
 
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panda said:
should make two mvp, one for qbs only and one every other position.
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Yeah, this is why there is a DPOY and an OPOY, basically. It occasionally splits on Offense, though likely not often enough, and it still almost always winds up being a skill position player. It's hard to see exactly how dominant a guard is, but it's easy to see a running back notch 1800 yards and 19 touchdowns or something, let alone a QB doing QB stuff.
 
DavidPF said:
It's absolutely an excellent argument; it sounds just as good as yours does (i.e. worthless), it's just as easy to prove as yours is (i.e. impossible), and that's the point.

Not because of anything wrong with either Brady or Rockne, but because of the complete futility of trying to say who's the best ever. (Especially if the true best ever was a cornerback or offensive tackle)
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Nope. Brady has the rings, stats, records leadership, vision, and dedication to be the GOAT.
 
big_adventure said:
Brown was terrible with the Pats, and he was nothing but a barely above average possession receiver with the Bucs this year. The fact that he scored in the SB doesn't change that.

Gronk was a more-or-less average tight end this year. He was barely a shadow of the GRONK of ages past.

Fournette was a more-or-less average running back this year, he looked pretty good against the Chiefs, but that's a conflux of a good game plan by the Bucs, a good game by Fournette, and the fact that the Chiefs were and are a terrible rush defense. They are just usually winning by enough points that they don't face as much rushing.

All of that said, advanced stats like those at Football Outsiders already picked the Bucs as slightly better then the Chiefs going into the game, and mostly because of their vastly superior defense.
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Fournette was averaging over 100 yards from scrimmage every post season game the Bucs played. He was well above average when it mattered.
 
labor of love said:
Nope. Brady has the rings, stats, records leadership, vision, and dedication to be the GOAT.
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There are a number of QBs with better stats - not career longevity based stats of course, where his "great skill plus playing literally forever" is unbelievable - but seasonal or career rate stats. He's got the rings, but rings aren't won by individuals. Dedication? He's not even objectively the best at that - Manning, for example, was legendary in that regard. "Vision?" Yeah, nah. He's great, but objectively? Go on, prove it. He's one of the best on so many levels - longevity, he's the best ever and it's not close. Skill? One of the best, definitely, but not "the" best - his numbers, compared to his contemporaries, don't make him head and shoulders better. Arm? Good arm, not "best eva" arm. Touch? Brilliant, definitely, but not better then a number of other guys. Ability to analyze the game? Of course he's brilliant, but objectively the best? Nope.

You are clearly a Brady fan, so you are not objective here. That's fine: being a sports fan is not about objectivity. That said, you are never going to get me to say "Brady is the GOAT" and mean it, so why are you trying? We KNOW you believe that, you've stated it in at least a dozen posts in this thread. I'm not trying to get you to renounce your beliefs. You can name your next 5 kids Tom Brady I through V and it doesn't bother me. But you saying it over and over again, using arguments like MOST RINGIEST EVER isn't going to change my mind.

So I will exit the discussion, and leave you to it. Enjoy!
 
big_adventure said:
All three of the post season games they played? Really bad players have had really good two game stretches. It doesn't make them great players.
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He was like the 6th pick in the draft and a standout college athlete. I guess the rest of the league didn’t see in Fournette what Tampa(Brady) did which explains why someone else didn’t win the SB.
Seems desperate to downplay his playoff performance. I mean, it wasn’t luck or a fluke...he rose to the occasion when it mattered most.
 
labor of love said:
He was like the 6th pick in the draft and a standout college athlete. I guess the rest of the league didn’t see in Fournette what Tampa(Brady) did which explains why someone else didn’t win the SB.
Seems desperate to downplay his playoff performance. I mean, it wasn’t luck or a fluke...he rose to the occasion when it mattered most.
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He was amazing in college until he started racking up injuries. He was an overdraft by a terrible team known for bad drafts (Jax), who cut bait on him because he wasn't worth more than an off-the-shelf option for a team going nowhere (and going nowhere, primarily, because of crappy drafts). And the idea that Jax would have won the super bowl with Fournette is pretty laughable. Do you think that Fournette was the difference between Jax being good and bad this year? Which, hate to break it to you, he wasn't. He was a serviceable back and that's it. There is no such thing as "turns it on when it matters most" - because you don't stay a professional athlete if you can't turn it on to win all the time, basically. Yes, there are example in basketball of someone like Shaq phoning it in for a while, but that's Shaq, not Fournette, and that was Shaq playing with a handful of rings already in his pocket on the best team in the league.

Here are Fournette's stats in the playoffs, over 4 games:

WC game: 5 carries, 13 yards, 2 catches, 14 yards
Div game: 19-93, 4-39
NFC Champ; 17-63, 5-44
SB: 16-89, 4-46

Game one was objectively bad. Game two was pretty damn good, Game three was middling, SB was pretty good. Nothing there spells genius. And this was playing behind a very good line, with a brilliant offensive coach, with arguably the best tandem of receivers in the league on the outside, two decent tight ends (one of whom is Gronk), a decent slot receiver (AB) and, oh yeah, that dude you keep calling the GOAT under center. You can find that level of performance at running back, for cheap, basically any time you look for it. It just wasn't particularly special. Good? Definitely. I'm happy for him, my parents both went to LSU so I'll always have a soft spot for the Tigers. But not OMFG GREATEST BACK EVA. Smart teams don't spend a lot on that guy, because that guy is available, easily, all the time.

I'm not downplaying anything: he had a good (not great: good) game in the Super Bowl against a truly bad defense that's even worse against the rush than the pass. Hell, I hope he cashes the hell in and somebody pays him 10m a year for 5. It's not going to happen: teams are smarter now than that. Well, maybe the Jets or Houston will overpay him.
 
You’ve literally disproven nothing I’ve said. Yet attempted to imply I said things I didn’t. Jacksonville did ride Fournette to an AFC championship. Also you left out Fournettes passing stats.
 
😁 can't let go
Craig is Saints to the core, I love Saints too Brees a class act.

I thought many years Brady was overated won games with Vinaterie field goals. Giants beat him with good defense, dog#_+& luck he beat Seahawks. I would jump out of chair & yell when he got sacked.

People don't like athletes that win too much.
Take Eddy Merckx from Belgium. Many consider the best cyclist ever. He was punched in the kidney by a fan in last TDF.

The Atlanta SB was best comeback in SB history. He willed the Patriots to Victory.

I was in the Montana camp as best ever until that game. JMH opinion.
 
labor of love said:
You’ve literally disproven nothing I’ve said. Yet attempted to imply I said things I didn’t. Jacksonville did ride Fournette to an AFC championship. Also you left out Fournettes passing stats.
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I did leave out a stat line, but it doesn't help him much. Against Green Bay:

12 carries, 55 yards, 5 catches for 19 yards. That's not even a little bit good.

Fournette's RECEIVING stats are there for every game - copied from above, where, to be fair, I screwed up when I scraped the stats, as I'll explain...

WC game: 5 carries, 13 yards, 2 catches, 14 yards (oops, this was week 17, when the bucs beat Atl, and needed to to clinch the 5 seed)
Div game: 19-93, 4-39 (this was the WC game)
NFC Champ; 17-63, 5-44 (this was the Div game)
Actual NFC champ: 12-55, 5-19
SB: 16-89, 4-46

The second set of numbers on each line are the catches. I kind of figured that would be obvious.

His passing stats are, you know, inexistant, so I don't know why you ask for them.

And why do you think I want to disprove anything to you? You have nothing to prove to me, and have proven nothing. You have made blanket statements that sound just like Stephen A. Smith talking. You have analyzed nothing, compared nothing, and are obviously a fan of Brady, likely the Bucs as well? You are not objective, and don't need to be? It's sport, it's meant to be fun. There's nothing to disprove. You really don't need to get that mad. Me saying that Fournette was an average back, something backed up by, you know, his actual performance on the field, isn't something that should seriously anger you. If you don't agree, that's totally OK with me. One of the beautiful things about sport and life in general is that we don't all have to agree on everything. If every man only wanted the exact same sexual partner, well, most of us would be screwed and doomed to disappointment. Fortunately, that's not the case.
 
Lol who's angry? Just log off for the night. Any back putting up 100 yards from scrimmage per game through the playoffs isnt average. But also, it’s not necessarily Fournettes stat line that makes him great, he made excellent runs, and blocks.
Like Keith said I’m a die hard saints fan. Tampa is a division rival. My avatar on this forum for like 8 years was Drew Brees.
But I guess you wouldn’t know that since you joined the forum 10 days ago.
 
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labor of love said:
Lol who's angry? Just log off for the night. Any back putting up 100 yards from scrimmage per game through the playoffs isnt average. But also, it’s not necessarily Fournettes stat line that makes him great, he made excellent runs, and blocks.
Like Keith said I’m a die hard saints fan. Tampa is a division rival. My avatar on this forum for like 8 years was Drew Brees.
But I guess you wouldn’t know that since you joined the forum 10 days ago.
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1. I'm in Paris, so this was all this morning for me. You managed to read down to the date I joined the forum, but not to where I am located?

2. I am most definitely not mad, I find this fun, but you can see that in that I fairly dispassionately cite data in my replies.

3. The fact that you have been on this forum far longer than I has literally nothing at all to do with our relative knowledge or our relative opinions on football, or the validity of either.

4. Having two good games, one mediocre game and one abjectly bad game in a four game stretch doesn't make Fournette better than average. There have been MANY backs who have averaged 100 yards from scrimmage in the playoffs who were far worse than average for their careers. There have been backs doing that who were basically never heard from again. There have been "just a guy" backs who have done that. Timmy Smith is a personal fave: in the 87 season, as a rookie, he was third string, only even touched the ball in 4 games. In the playoffs, George Rogers was injured, Kelvin Bryant was bad, Smith he averaged well over 100 yards rushing per game, including a then-record 204 in the Super Bowl, before becoming literally nothing again after. That's one example off the top of my head.

I said myself that Fournette played well, just that he's an overall average back. That's backed up by his historical production. He's got good physical tools. He's extremely "meh" in the receiving game, which has always been a critique of him all the way back to college. He's a strong, hard runner with below average speed, playing behind a really good line for a brilliant coach with arguably the best receiver talent in the league and an all-time great quarterback. He's good enough not to crap the bed or anything, but it seems like it really bothers you when I say that he's not OMG the greatest surprise ever. He's not really a surprise. There are at least 25 backs in the NFL who could give you what he does or more. That's the definition of "average." It doesn't make him a bad back, or a bad person, and I'm happy for the guy if he turns a good playoff run into serious bucks.

I don't think that he WILL, mind you, at least not with Tampa. Tampa has some pretty serious cap decisions to make, and don't really have easy ways to deal with them: Barrett, David and Godwin are all FAs. That doesn't leave a ton for a running back who wasn't even the surefire no.1 starter most of the year.


juice said:
Why isn't LT getting mentioned here? He changed the way the game is played.
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There are a ton of individuals we could bring up. LT didn't really change the way the game was played, though, he just did his role ridiculously well, at least as long as the coke was flowing. I wouldn't place LT markedly above, say, Reggie White or JJ Watt or Revis or Ronnie Lott or Mike Singletary to use contemporaries and more recent players only.

Want to see dominance? Look at Don Hutson: he held the career receiving TD mark for 44 years. And he was a good safety who led the league in picks. In 11 years (I think) he led the league in receiving yards 7 times and touchdowns 9 times. In 1942 he caught 74 passes for over 1200 yards and 17 touchdowns. That year, he had more receiving yards than 5 teams did total passing yards, and he had more receiving touchdowns than all but one other team (that team, Chicago, had 21 total). He was ridiculously dominant, statistically better than his contemporaries by a level nobody has ever approached.
 
TSF415 said:
Too much crap to sort thru.... but if someone is trying to argue Brady ain’t the goat then y’all tripping
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Actually, all there has been is some people insisting on Brady GOATness and others simply saying that the discussion of GOAT isn't their style. That causes the BradyGoats to explode with rage. Not a single person has said "someone else is the GOAT" or that "Brady's not the GOAT" except in expressing that GOATness is kind of ridiculous in a team sport which has 24 or 25 other starters at minimum (long snapper, kicker, punter, one or more gunners plus the 22 on O & D) and a giant stack of coaches. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, love of goats and standard of goatness being one family of those opinions.
 
You’re just repeating yourself and once again implying things I didn’t say. You came to this thread to argue with me about things I said. You’re the one throwing tldrs at me like I’m going to write a treatise in response. Its terrible that you feel the need to dedicate this much of your time attempting to disprove reality. Why would I be mad lol? Just let it go.
 
Correct the fact it’s a team sport and Brady has more rings than any franchise is insane. Going to the Super Bowl 50% of his career, insane. If he was an individual sport athlete or playing a sport like basketball where the individual can be even more impactful, who knows how many championships he would have won.

To be clear, I’ve hated Tom Brady since he was in high school. I rooted for him once during his first Super Bowl because I hdidnt want the rams to win and I only rooted for him this year because the chiefs can suck a fat one from last years Super Bowl.
 
labor of love said:
You’re just repeating yourself and once again implying things I didn’t say. You came to this thread to argue with me about things I said. You’re the one throwing tldrs at me like I’m going to write a treatise in response. Its terrible that you feel the need to dedicate this much of your time attempting to disprove reality. Why would I be mad lol? Just let it go.
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I'm really sorry you feel that way. Fortunately there's an easy way to check, and nope, I came into the thread to reply to Keith's ask on who was going to win, etc. The posts are there.
 
Look at it this way be glad you didn't bet 10K on the game.

If it makes you feel any better Brady was asked what game does he think about most in his long career. He truthfully said first loss to Giants in SB. Michael Strahan retired after that game. After sacking Brady, tackles, knocked down passes. He is on TV everybody loves him esp. New Yorkers. Brady has to see that big gap tooth smile all over again. 😁😁😁
 
big_adventure said:
There are a number of QBs with better stats - not career longevity based stats of course, where his "great skill plus playing literally forever" is unbelievable - but seasonal or career rate stats. He's got the rings, but rings aren't won by individuals. Dedication? He's not even objectively the best at that - Manning, for example, was legendary in that regard. "Vision?" Yeah, nah. He's great, but objectively? Go on, prove it. He's one of the best on so many levels - longevity, he's the best ever and it's not close. Skill? One of the best, definitely, but not "the" best - his numbers, compared to his contemporaries, don't make him head and shoulders better. Arm? Good arm, not "best eva" arm. Touch? Brilliant, definitely, but not better then a number of other guys. Ability to analyze the game? Of course he's brilliant, but objectively the best? Nope.

You are clearly a Brady fan, so you are not objective here. That's fine: being a sports fan is not about objectivity. That said, you are never going to get me to say "Brady is the GOAT" and mean it, so why are you trying? We KNOW you believe that, you've stated it in at least a dozen posts in this thread. I'm not trying to get you to renounce your beliefs. You can name your next 5 kids Tom Brady I through V and it doesn't bother me. But you saying it over and over again, using arguments like MOST RINGIEST EVER isn't going to change my mind.

So I will exit the discussion, and leave you to it. Enjoy!
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I’m not a Brady fan either, I find him cringeworthy and robotic as a person.

i think you actually made a compelling argument that he is the GOAT. As you said, he might not be THE best eva in the specific categories, but he’s one of the best in a lot or even all of them. Others are great or the best in ONE of them.

combine that with the longevity/consistency and the rings, et voila: GOAT

I actually think there’s less of a debate in football now than in other sports. Don’t know about Baseball but that’s tainted because of drugs.

Ok, now that I think of it: individual sports is a lot easier: is there any doubt Usain Bolt is the greatest sprinter of all time?
 
for the Brady haters.
Screenshot_20210210-145513_Instagram.jpg
 
Again, I don't remotely argue against Brady's greatness, not anywhere in this thread nor anywhere else. Call him the GOAT if you want to, I just don't have any need myself to hear that term, and damn it starts a lot of fights that don't mean much. I won't argue with it.

I will often argue when people start saying made up stuff to support their opinion. Saying that Brady is statistically one of the best ever? True! Saying his team has won more super bowls than any other player? True! Saying that he's beating the battle against time better than any other player ever? 100% so true it's insane. Plus, he's a good story - wasn't even a regular starter in college, drafted in the 6th round (though I do vomit a bit inside every time I hear that story, ever since the, I dunno, 10,000th time?).

Saying that HE is the reason that every team he has been on has won, while using that argument against others, however? That's silly. He's one of the reasons, and often a huge one, but again, football is played by dozens of players per team, every week. Saying that he has some kind of special winner gene that other people don't have, ignoring how hard those other players tried and how many games they won? That ignores the previous thing as well: it's a team game. Saying that "Arians doesn't coach and lets Brady do it" is just patently false and, honestly, doesn't need to be stated to acknowledge that Brady is great or Da Greatest or whatever title anyone is comfortable giving him. Note: I'm not attirbuting those comments to anyone particularly here - no anger or venom required: those are constant things we hear on ESPN or whatever and don't need to exist.

Same thing applies to Jordan, to LeBron, to Gretzky and Lemieux: to anybody in any team sport.

And again, that's just my opinion. I respect anyone else's as well. Not that I won't discuss it, even argue points, but that's the fun of sports!

Well, I think I've typed 3 full novels worth of text in this thread that nobody is ever going to read. I get everyone's point about Tommy - and I will swear right along everyone here that the dude is insanely good. Absolutely great. I won't call him the GOAT, but I don't call anyone ELSE the GOAT either - and Brady definitely has as much or more claim on that title as anyone, were it to be awarded.

Peace and love! And sharp knives. Especially those.
 
If you don't want to participate in a discussion about whether Brady is the best NFL player ever, then don't. Though at this point, most people seem to agree that there isn't much of a discussion to be had.

I understand the argument that it's difficult to compare players across eras, or across positions. But I don't get the argument that participation in a team sport makes determination of a sport's greatest player impossible or pointless.

Personally, these types of discussions, comparisons, and speculation are part of what make sports fun. And isn't that why we watch sports?
 
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