American Made Copper Cookware

[vicv]

@Michi oh no doubt I agree. I have no copper pots for a reason. My point was that the conductivity of copper is lost when it's lined in SS. Might as well get a aluminium disc bottom pan. Much cheaper for the same performance.

 

[Michi]

My point was that the conductivity of copper is lost when it's lined in SS.

I'd say that's right. The copper thing always has been (and always will be) a thing of looks and prestige. Copper pans look stunning, and they make a statement. About (or maybe by) the owner. The cost is about 50 times that of steel, for more or less the same performance. Economically, that doesn't make sense, just like having pans made out of gold doesn't make sense.

And I still would love to own a silver-plated copper pan

 

[vicv]

I'll up you one. A pure diamond pan. Best heat conductor known

 

[Michi]

Thanks for digging that up. I had no idea!

OK, for one-upmanship, vicv: 1, Michi: 0.

 

[vicv]

Lol. Thanks. used to make high-end LED flashlights and removing heat from the emitter was the most important thing. so I would machine a copper disk and then use glue that was made with a whole bunch of diamond dust in it.

 

[Paraffin]

To me having stainless lining completely negates the point of buying a copper pot. Yes copper has great conduction. SS does not. So the heat isn't even.

I come at this from experience, using the SS lined, heavy copper cookware in the photo above. I can assure you that the heat is even. This cookware works exactly the same in practice as the tin-lined copper pans I used to own, many years ago.

Tin is a good conductor. And it can be reapplied making tin lined copper pots for life. If the stainless and SS delaminate it's done

I refer again to the photo above. That's 18 years of almost daily use, including two stock pots not in the photos. None of them have delaminated. It's a mature technology. It's also very expensive, but it's lifetime cookware. You never need to replace it or have it re-tinned.

 

[vicv]

Oh I'm sure the heat is even. But more so than a good disc bottom or 3 ply pot......? I'd need some evidence on that besides "I can assure you." I've seen experiments done and there was no difference. I forget where but they took parchment paper I believe and looked where it burned. A mauviel copper pot had the same pattern as a cheap aluminum pan

 

[Jville]

Be careful here. High conductivity does not translate to even heat. In fact, it's the opposite. If you put something with high conductivity on a gas burner, it'll be the hottest where the flames underneath are hottest, and colder elsewhere.

It's true that heat from the hot areas travels more quickly from the hot regions to the colder regions if a metal has high heat conductivity. But that high conductivity is coupled with low heat capacity. This means that, if you put a cold steak into a hot copper pan, the pan will cool down more where the steak touches it than, say, a steel or aluminium pan would.

Conductivity and heat capacity are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You can have one or the other, but not both at the same time. Or you can go for a compromise somewhere in the middle, where both conductivity and heat capacity are sort of not bad, but not very good either.

You are wrong. The copper with tin linning is amazing at even heating. You hold the heat by having thicker copper. That is what determines how quick and how well it holds the heat. But even heating is what copper excels at. Thinner heat up quicker but don't hold it as well.

 

[rickbern]

Jville, plus 600 bucks from me, which was the retail price of the 2.5 mm mauviel sauté pan I just bought. No regrets

The thickness of the stainless lining is trivial and has no real effect on performance. My pan has 2.3 mm copper and .2 stainless. The thickness of the copper is all that matters.

Bottom line, people spend more for copper (or artisan knives) because it’s worth it to them. Got a boatload of relatives who gag at the cost of my knives too.

 

[Paraffin]

Oh I'm sure the heat is even. But more so than a good disc bottom or 3 ply pot......? I'd need some evidence on that besides "I can assure you." I've seen experiments done and there was no difference. I forget where but they took parchment paper I believe and looked where it burned. A mauviel copper pot had the same pattern as a cheap aluminum pan

Remember we're talking about pots as well as pans here, including stock pots. The copper transfers heat up the sides of a stock pot to help boil water or stock faster. And when you need something to cool, the copper transfers heat to the outside world faster. This happens in a shallow saute pan too, but it's more noticeable when you're working with soups, or adjusting oil temp for deep frying. The copper responds fast and predictably. You're not dealing with two different metal characteristics in the bottom of the pot and the sides.

If you've tried this kind of cookware and didn't like it, that would be one thing. But "seeing experiments done" isn't personal experience. There is a reason this king of cookware is still being sold, and it isn't ONLY for showing off. Take one look at how I treat the appearance of my copper pans. I don't give a rat's ass what it looks like.

 

[Tristan]

I’m surprised cost to preference is raised in this forum. Steel is cheaper but even there you have lodge vs the likes of Blu skillet ironware so it is all relative.
Part of using Tin could be preference for just how things used to be done - at least in the US there are places to get hand wiped tin applied, same as France. I have no such option in Asia.

Am curious about the silver lined Duparquet pans, anyone here ever have them a whirl?

 

[rickbern]

There’s a couple of other manufacturers around the world who will sell you a silver lining. On the subway so my spelling may be off

bottega del rame (find on amazon)
soy turkiye (in Istanbul)

I’d look at them too.

The problem with tin, other than the gigantic cost of maintenance is that it melts at temperatures lower than you need for crazy hot sear. It makes a little sense in a saucepan but you really have to baby it in a skillet or sauté pan

 

[lancep]

Wow, lots to unpack here.


The absolute best material for heat conduction (perhaps excepting diamond?) would be pure silver -- you can get a solid silver pan from Duparquet or Soy Turkiye (the former is sterling, ~90% silver, and the Soy is pure silver, like 99.9%).


However, for searing, aluminum has a higher specific heat than copper, and copper has a higher specific heat than silver, so for the same amount of weight the aluminum can store more energy than copper, and in turn copper more than silver. So, that argues in favor of aluminum. However, a related issue is how quickly the energy can be conveyed to the food from the surrounding metal, once the energy of the metal touching the food has been depleted. Because copper is a superior conductor, it will more quickly be able to pull the energy from the nearby metal and the heat from the flame. So, that will help copper close the gap in searing.


Note that copper is also much denser than aluminum (about 3X), so you need a much thicker piece of aluminum for the same amount of weight. In general, an aluminum pan will not weigh as much as a copper pan, so that also reduces the advantage of aluminum over copper for searing. (fwiw, Silver is a bit denser than copper, and much denser than aluminum, so that helps close the gap in terms of heat a pan can hold.)


For purposes other than searing, then one may prefer a superior conductor with lower specific heat, so that the pan can react more quickly to changes in the burner (sort of like having lower 'heat momentum,' to make up a term that conveys the idea).


The price premium for the solid silver pans seems sort of hard to justify, in terms of the underlying cost of the materials. I've figured that a solid silver pan would have maybe $1,000 - $2,000 of silver (of course, depending on the size and type), but they are priced at a big multiple of that. I don't see any particular reason that silver should be that hard to work, so it seems to be largely a function of the customer and the product being clearly a luxury or even show-off/conspicuous consumption type of thing. I have some solid silver bars, and I've noodled around the idea of getting one made into a pan, or trading it to a pan maker for a silver pan. (a 100 oz bar is about 5.75" x 3" x 1", so you could get 172.5 square inches of 2.5mm silver sheet from that. That would allow a circle of almost 15" enabling about a 24mm sauté pan to be fabricated.)


There are some Scandanavian companies that make or made silver lined copper -- the Georg Jensen taverna line seem to be around 2mm of copper with silver lining; there are also some pans that seem to be 2.5 or 3mm lined with silver.


I would definitely dispute the notion that copper lined with SS is no better than other materials. e.g. look at this site's testing of cookware:

https://www.centurylife.org/mauviel...ning-cast-iron-handles-2-5mm-total-thickness/


and here: https://thermtest.com/how-understanding-thermal-conductivity-will-make-you-a-better-cook

and here: http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/120/Common-Materials-of-Cookware


The shortcoming of stainless lined copper is the (thin) layer of stainless, which has less than great conductivity and which therefore slightly impairs the performance of the copper. Moreover, it is my impression that the stainless lining effectively limits the thickness of the copper to 2.3mm, whereas other linings don't create this constraint. Note there are pans that claim to be thicker copper with stainless linings, but I believe these pans in fact have nickel linings (e.g. I recently bought a bunch of pans off eBay that are 3mm or more of copper that were advertised as stainless lined but are likely actually nickel lined) and date back to the 70's or 80's.


Finally, if you want stainless lined copper, check out the Falk brand, which has some very good prices and occasionally has even better sales. Much cheaper than the Mauviel or Matfer-Bourgeat equivalents. Falk originally held the patent for producing the stainless and copper sheeting used to produce the stainless-lined copper cookware. https://www.copperpans.com

 

[rickbern]

Looking to outfit your yacht?

24 cm silver sauté pan

https://soy-turkiye.myshopify.com/products/soy-gast-series-pure-solid-silver-saute-pan

$4600

Actually, their silver lined 3mm copper is a bargain at 6 and change, usd.

 

[Tristan]

I'd rather have a set of those than one Bob Kramer knife. Since we are discussing stratospheric cookware beyond reason.

 

[Michi]

Actually, their silver lined 3mm copper is a bargain at 6 and change, usd.

It looks phenomenal, and I would love to own one. Just so I can look at it. Because that is cookware that will tarnish both inside and out. Twice the joy of polishing!

 

[Paraffin]

The problem with tin, other than the gigantic cost of maintenance is that it melts at temperatures lower than you need for crazy hot sear. It makes a little sense in a saucepan but you really have to baby it in a skillet or sauté pan

That's how I ruined the tin lining of my first copper saute pan, something like 35 years ago. Little bubbles in the tin from too much heat. You can avoid it if you're more careful, but in daily use it will need re-tinning at some point even if you're careful.

That experience put me off copper for years, until I discovered the Falk SS-lined copper cookware later in life, at a point in my peak earning years where I could afford it. I couldn't afford it now, so I'm glad I made the investment earlier.

 

[Eitan78]

Love to see some pics of well used ...that’s the action.

Used many times
But I still like it better when it’s nice an shiny

 

[Tonycast]

View attachment 73128

Used many times
But I still like it better when it’s nice an shiny
View attachment 73129

Holy crap that's gorgeous

 

[Qapla']

It looks phenomenal, and I would love to own one. Just so I can look at it. Because that is cookware that will tarnish both inside and out. Twice the joy of polishing!

That's one thing I wonder about; does the amount of tarnish have any meaningful effect on the heat conductivity (e.g. Cu2O vis-a-vis Cu, Ag2S vis-a-vis Ag)? That one you linked to seemed pretty cool were it not far out of my price range for that sort of thing.

For those who actively use copper cookware, what type of copper pot/pan do you most often use, and how or for what do you most often use it?

 

[Michi]

That's one thing I wonder about; does the amount of tarnish have any meaningful effect on the heat conductivity (e.g. Cu2O vis-a-vis Cu, Ag2S vis-a-vis Ag)?

I would expect not. The patina/tarnish on copper and silver is a very (very) thin layer of oxide or sulfide, on the order of a few microns in thickness, which is completely inconsequential compared to the mass of the pan.

 

[Paraffin]

For those who actively use copper cookware, what type of copper pot/pan do you most often use, and how or for what do you most often use it?

Using the Falk terminology for pan type, and I don't have the exact sizes on hand:

Small, medium and medium-large saucepans -- Soups, oatmeal, marinara/spaghetti sauce, steaming small quantity vegetables, the usual thing you'd use a saucepan for.

Medium frying pan -- Sauces, sauteing small amounts. No high heat searing, I use cast iron for that.

Large Rondeau pan -- Shallow-depth deep frying, browning ground beef or roast, Indian curries.

Medium and large Cauldrons (stock pots) -- Cooking noodles, steaming spinach, any large quantity soup or stew.

It's hard to say which ones get used the most, because each one except the large size stockpot gets used at least once a week. That large stockpot is probably the least used, but it's handy for steaming and reducing a large pile of fresh spinach, or making stock.

If I was starting from scratch with limited funds, or just wanted the basics, I'd probably go for the small, medium, and larger sauce pans first. Then the rondeau pan. The frying pan could be replaced with cast iron or carbon steel, but the temp control is nice for sauces. The stock pots could be easily replaced with aluminum or stainless steel. The copper heat control isn't a big advantage with those, and they are pretty heavy.

 

[rickbern]

I use a 28cm mauviel sauté pan for vegetable sautés and stovetop braises. I have a 20 cm 3l French antiqueish saucepan that’s kinda heavy that I use for risotto and polenta. I also have a crappy American electroplated oval skillet with a short handle I use as a roasting pan.

 

[Qapla']

Using the Falk terminology for pan type, and I don't have the exact sizes on hand:

Small, medium and medium-large saucepans -- Soups, oatmeal, marinara/spaghetti sauce, steaming small quantity vegetables, the usual thing you'd use a saucepan for.

Medium frying pan -- Sauces, sauteing small amounts. No high heat searing, I use cast iron for that.

Large Rondeau pan -- Shallow-depth deep frying, browning ground beef or roast, Indian curries.

Medium and large Cauldrons (stock pots) -- Cooking noodles, steaming spinach, any large quantity soup or stew.

It's hard to say which ones get used the most, because each one except the large size stockpot gets used at least once a week. That large stockpot is probably the least used, but it's handy for steaming and reducing a large pile of fresh spinach, or making stock.

If I was starting from scratch with limited funds, or just wanted the basics, I'd probably go for the small, medium, and larger sauce pans first. Then the rondeau pan. The frying pan could be replaced with cast iron or carbon steel, but the temp control is nice for sauces. The stock pots could be easily replaced with aluminum or stainless steel. The copper heat control isn't a big advantage with those, and they are pretty heavy.

Thanks for all the info! The general story I hear regarding copper is that it's very good for sauces (as you also mention), and you mention that sauce pans were the ones you would recommend first. What are your views on "orthodox" vs. saucier/evasee/windsor/etc.-style sauce pans? (For me, I'd probably only buy one such copper item, due to its cost and its dishwasher-unsuitability and the like, so it'd probably be a sauce pan.)

I use a 28cm mauviel sauté pan for vegetable sautés and stovetop braises. I have a 20 cm 3l French antiqueish saucepan that’s kinda heavy that I use for risotto and polenta. I also have a crappy American electroplated oval skillet with a short handle I use as a roasting pan.

What made you choose copper for the saute pan?

 

[rickbern]

Thanks for all the info! The general story I hear regarding copper is that it's very good for sauces (as you also mention), and you mention that sauce pans were the ones you would recommend first. What are your views on "orthodox" vs. saucier/evasee/windsor/etc.-style sauce pans? (For me, I'd probably only buy one such copper item, due to its cost and its dishwasher-unsuitability and the like, so it'd probably be a sauce pan.)


What made you choose copper for the saute pan?

Because sauté pans are the most used pans in my kitchen.

I value the increased floor area and ability to contain food a sauté pan offers. Copper is really good at modulating the heat in Sauté pans.

I use skillets as well but I like the Demeyere stainless and the carbon steel ones I have. I had a 26 cm cuisinart sauté pan and decided to replace it with a 24cm Demeyere rondeau and the 28cm mauviel copper. They’re both superior pans and are priced simmalarly at a given size. Weights about the same too.

 

[ptolemy]

I found another video by them . This one even more curious but also somewhat frustrating. Around 1:30 when it starts, they state than tin melts at 475f and as long as you have liquid on pan, it will stay at 212f. But, obviously that only applies to water. For oil frying, you're around 350-400f. If you want to quickly sear steak, you probably get into 425-450 range. This essentially takes this pan out of. Def need to mention caveats ahead of benefits in this situation, IMO

 

[Jville]

I found another video by them . This one even more curious but also somewhat frustrating. Around 1:30 when it starts, they state than tin melts at 475f and as long as you have liquid on pan, it will stay at 212f. But, obviously that only applies to water. For oil frying, you're around 350-400f. If you want to quickly sear steak, you probably get into 425-450 range. This essentially takes this pan out of. Def need to mention caveats ahead of benefits in this situation, IMO

Yeah, for heavy high heat searing copper with tin linning is not the tool to use. But it's wonderful for many things. I just fried bacon in mine recently, such a pleasure.