Any F1 fans here?

[Bart.s]

I think Palmer's analysis is pretty solid. Whether Hamilton would have made it till the end and what position he would have been in is going to be up for debate. I think Mercedes made the right call the first time, pitting in lap 41, so Hamilton could have gotten through the graining phase and fight for positions.

At this point in the championship, you just can't gamble anymore.

 

[Bobby2shots]

I think Palmer's analysis is pretty solid. Whether Hamilton would have made it till the end and what position he would have been in is going to be up for debate. I think Mercedes made the right call the first time, pitting in lap 41, so Hamilton could have gotten through the graining phase and fight for positions.

At this point in the championship, you just can't gamble anymore.

I gave your post a "like", because I agree with the first call-in,,,, to a degree. Other cars which had pitted at that same point, were reporting over their team radio that they were getting "no gain in performance", and, some reported actually dropping in performance.

I disagree completely on the "gamble". Would Max have pitted under those circumstances? What about Ayrton, or Michael Schumacher? Hamilton was not reporting an issue with his tires,,, it was the engineers who said they saw a "temperature drop in the rears". 7 laps left, and Hamilton was P3,,, a full 13 seconds ahead of Perez. Hamilton could have reduced his lap time by 2 seconds per remaining lap, and still kept the position. Mercedes conceded 10 points, 7 laps before the end of the race.

P.S. I edited out Shovlin's comment about "risk of a puncture". Apparently, the site that posted that puncture quote, was was reporing on the 2020 Turkish GP.

I agree that the team "played it safe". The issue I have is "the spirit of racing". As Toto always says "we, are racers". Bull. With a 13 second lead, and only 7 laps to go, they throw in the towel.

 

[Bart.s]

I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.

@Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...late-tyre-stop-in.1UIlkbhVJ6Byp5aIvLjLvq.html

 

[Bobby2shots]

I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.

@Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...late-tyre-stop-in.1UIlkbhVJ6Byp5aIvLjLvq.html

Toto's covering his a55.

 

[Bobby2shots]

I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.

@Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...late-tyre-stop-in.1UIlkbhVJ6Byp5aIvLjLvq.html

Nowwwww it comes out,,,,Bart.s, did you read some of the quotes in the post you entered above? Check this out,,, this is from James Allison, Mercedes chief engineer;

Even following his Lap 50 pit stop, Hamilton remained frustrated by the decision to stop, telling engineer Pete Bonnington over team radio: “We shouldn’t have pitted… I told you!” But while Allison did believe the seven-time champion’s original starting set of tyres could have made it to the end of the race, he added that Hamilton’s pace would have been “dismal” by that point… “Yes, in all likelihood, we would have got to the end of the race on one set of tyres, able to circulate without difficulty,” said Allison.

Ocon did that for example, and our car typically runs its rubber better than many of our competitors. So yes, we would have got to the end of the race. The question is, how quick would we have been? And the evidence there is pretty clear: We would have been very slow."
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Now, go back to Jolyon Palmer's chart and analysis. Check where Perez "possibly" catches Hamilton for P3, and it shows lap 58,,,, the final lap......................................
I rest my case,,,let's have a beer... You can pick up the tab

 

[Bart.s]

Haha well, yeah, like I said before, he could have made it till the end, Ocon did, so Hamilton also could have made it, albeit I still think it was a risk.

Allison also predicted P8 on those tires, so pitting and P5 isn't such a bad deal in that case

 

[Bobby2shots]

Haha well, yeah, like I said before, he could have made it till the end, Ocon did, so Hamilton also could have made it, albeit I still think it was a risk.

Allison also predicted P8 on those tires, so pitting and P5 isn't such a bad deal in that case

I suppose you noticed that virtually all of the after-race interviews dealt with Hamilton, and his tire issues. Valtteri won, but that got very little attention after the race. The Mercedes engineers gave me the impression they were trying to cover their own butts for a crappy, gutless call.

Jolyon Palmers' graph had to come from somewhere, and I presume it came from Mercedes' data. The graph clearly shows "actual current time",,, plus the "probable" future results with a pit-stop,,, and, "probable" future result without a pit-stop. There were zero,,,, i repeat ZERO other cars projected to catch Hamilton before lap 58,,, the final lap,, and that car was Perez. Hamilton was 13 seconds ahead of Perez when he was called in. Perez "might" have caught Hamilton, but then, he'd have had to get by. Good luck with THAT one. Worst case scenario, Hamilton would have been P4.

When Hamilton came out of the pits, he almost immediately called in over team radio that he was experiencing severe graining on the new intermediates,,,, and that was because the track was too dry for new inters. He should have stayed on the older tires because they were perfect for those specific track conditions. There were plenty of team-radio messages from the other teams who had stopped,,,, and they ALL complained about performance drop-off after pitting for new inters.

When Hamilton got on team radio and said "We shouldn't have pitted,,,,, I TOLD you", that occurred "after" the pit stop. No wonder he was pissed. Mercedes gave away Hamilton's 13 second lead with only 7 laps left. Look at Hamilton's pit-stop video again. At the 3:09 point in the video, you get a clear view of Hamiltons' rear tire, and they're smooth, with no graining, no blistering.

Allison, gave two very different and conflicting messages. Why do you suppose that happened? I suspect one message was the honest truth, and the other was the corrected-truth "cover the team's a$$" message. Someone must have "set Allison straight",,,, and the only person who could do that, is Toto. This is starting to smell like 2016 all over again, when Hamilton's car was suffering seemingly mysterious issues and DNF's on a regular basis, while Nico Rosberg's car had virtually no issues. If you recall, in 2016 Toto had switched all of Hamilton's mechanics over to Nico's side of the garage,,, and Nico's mechanics over to Hamilton. He's done it this year as well, as far as I know.

 

[Jovidah]

How is it the engineers fault??? If Hamilton had come in when they originally told him to when Perez did he would have easily secured third. Was only a matter of time before he'd have passed him if they pitted at the same time.
The whole situation at the end could have been completely avoided... at the end they were just stuck between a rock and a hard place having to choose between essentially keeping fingers crossed or limiting damage.
What kind of conspiracy BS reasons could the engineers have to deliberately sabotage their own team?

 

[Bobby2shots]

How is it the engineers fault???

Allison confirmed that they could have finished with "no issues"

If Hamilton had come in when they originally told him to when Perez did he would have easily secured third.

Other teams who had pitted, were reporting s drop in performance due to graining.

Was only a matter of time before he'd have passed him if they pitted at the same time.

As it turns out, Hamilton was P3,,,, already AHEAD of Perez by 13 seconds.

Forget about the fact they pitted him late,,,, they put on the WRONG TIRES when they did pit him. There were all sorts of team radio messages saying inters were NOT the way to go due to the current track conditions. Did you not actually watch the race??? Or, listen to team radio???? Did you record the race?

 

[JaVa]

Hamilton ignored the first call to pit, He could have ignored the second one. He made the choice to turn the wheels towards the pit entry.

And yes Merc is easy on the tires and yes Hamilton is THE wizard in tire care and he probably could have made it to the finish line. But even more so, if he felt it was better not to pit just ignore the radio like he did before and he's done so many times.

But, he is also sensational at regrouping and coming back stronger. He'll take the pole next race and in the race drive to a dominant win. That's how he always deals with setbacks.

 

[Jovidah]

I watched the race, and heard Hamilton go out of his way to overrule his engineers when they called him in. Had he listened to them in the first place the whole situation would have been avoided.

And ask Vettel how well it went without inters... He could barely keep it on the track.

 

[Bart.s]

Allison, gave two very different and conflicting messages. Why do you suppose that happened? I suspect one message was the honest truth, and the other was the corrected-truth "cover the team's a$$" message. Someone must have "set Allison straight",,,, and the only person who could do that, is Toto. This is starting to smell like 2016 all over again, when Hamilton's car was suffering seemingly mysterious issues and DNF's on a regular basis, while Nico Rosberg's car had virtually no issues. If you recall, in 2016 Toto had switched all of Hamilton's mechanics over to Nico's side of the garage,,, and Nico's mechanics over to Hamilton. He's done it this year as well, as far as I know.

I do remember the 2016 season, where indeed, Hamilton had quite some trouble with the car. Also remember the mechanics switch and Hamilton not being happy about it. If I remember correctly, he said he would elaborate about it in a book when he retires. On the other hand, I've also read that it is not uncommon in F1 teams to switch mechanics, to create harmony and not an us vs. them within the team. I haven't heard anything about a mechanics switch this year though.

I've read the last part of your post a couple of times, but still not sure what you are hinting at. Mercedes working against Hamilton?

 

[Bobby2shots]

I watched the race, and heard Hamilton go out of his way to overrule his engineers when they called him in. Had he listened to them in the first place the whole situation would have been avoided.

And ask Vettel how well it went without inters... He could barely keep it on the track.

You're not getting it..... Hamilton was going for the win,,,, right from the start of the race. That meant he was running a no-stopper. He was .4 of a second per lap faster than anyone else all weekend. Had he not been held up by Tsunoda for a while, Hamilton would have been P-1 by lap 44. Because of that, Hamilton was nursing his tires throughout the race,,,, he simply didn't need to pit. They were aware that the tires could go the full distance, as Ocon proved. There's more;,,,,

Those cars that HAD pitted, were reporting over their team radio that they were experiencing severe graining, and a drop in performance. After the drop-off, they started improving their times as their tires wore. This was an indication that worn intermediates were the way to go at that stage of the race and existing track condition., and Hamilton realized this. As the track dried in the latter half of the race, there was no standing water,,,, only dampness. Too damp for full-on slicks, but ideal for worn intermediates with a narrower band of "slickness", and still having tread at both edges of the tires. Vettel's slicks simply put too much bald surface on the damp track to shed water and he was aquaplaning. Hamilton, had just the right ratio of tread and "slick surface".

 

[Jovidah]

Are you delusional? Going for the win? How? Bottas was miles ahead in a similar car. Same with Verstappen. Leclerc tried going for the win on one set of tires and guess what... it failed miserably. And you can't both run faster than everyone else and nurse your entires the entire race. Please... I get it, you're a Hamilton fanboy, he's the next coming of christ who can do no wrong and if he ever makes a bad call himself a scapegoat must be found, but please... this is just getting stupid. P3 would have been pretty solidly secured if he pitted along with Perez, and it's his own fault for trying to gamble by staying out that it backfired.

'Worn interemediates were the way to go'.... have you actually watched the race yourself? Leclerc was a sitting duck. He pitted late as well... and it was similarly a bad call that lost him positions.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Are you delusional? Going for the win? How? Bottas was miles ahead in a similar car. Same with Verstappen. Leclerc tried going for the win on one set of tires and guess what... it failed miserably. And you can't both run faster than everyone else and nurse your entires the entire race. Please... I get it, you're a Hamilton fanboy, he's the next coming of christ who can do no wrong and if he ever makes a bad call himself a scapegoat must be found, but please... this is just getting stupid. P3 would have been pretty solidly secured if he pitted along with Perez, and it's his own fault for trying to gamble by staying out that it backfired.

'Worn interemediates were the way to go'.... have you actually watched the race yourself? Leclerc was a sitting duck. He pitted late as well... and it was similarly a bad call that lost him positions.

You argue "opinions and beliefs". Try arguing on data and facts. Bottas was on a one-stopper. He was also running a low-downforce set-up, which was harder on the tires.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Hamilton ignored the first call to pit, He could have ignored the second one. He made the choice to turn the wheels towards the pit entry.

And yes Merc is easy on the tires and yes Hamilton is THE wizard in tire care and he probably could have made it to the finish line. But even more so, if he felt it was better not to pit just ignore the radio like he did before and he's done so many times.

But, he is also sensational at regrouping and coming back stronger. He'll take the pole next race and in the race drive to a dominant win. That's how he always deals with setbacks.

Hi JaVa,

Actually, Hamilton didn't ignore the call to "box,box,box",,,, he said "Why???, I'm doing fine?". Bono, his race engineer said he thought it was best, based on the data. Lewis in return said, "one more lap???? Bono said"OK, we'll rethink it on this end while you go around", and he never came back to Lewis until lap 51. Those weren't Bono's exact words, but you get the idea.

 

[JaVa]

Yeah, true. Didn't really mean it that literally. They said box, he didn't. Hamilton made that decision. not the team.

And sure the next time he was pushed harder to pit, but if he was so sure and would've not come in, what could they do? Hamiltons race craft is probably best in the business and he has a history of disregarding any requests or commands if he felt it was not catering to his career. Think of all the times he butted heads with Rosberg and Alonso. All the times he was told to back down, but he never did. A sure cine of a champion.

Not saying it Was Hamiltons fault, just that if he felt that strongly, why come in and regret later?

Good thing Bottas got his act together and came thru for the team when it was needed the most. He was like a machine that day and obliterated the competition (Hamilton included). Just look at his quickest laps. He just wanted to show how he was just controlling the race and wanted everyone to see how much he had pace in store if needed. Where has that guy been the whole season?

I think a lot of things still went Hamiltons way even if they might (or not?) have made a mistake pitting?

If anyone else has a bad day, they end up in the bottom half. When Hamilton has a bad day he is fifth. I think over all decently managed damage control from Merc. And like it's been said before, as MB has been dominating so long that they are used to playing it safely the long game rather than risking anything. It's served them pretty darn well so far.

So fun and exciting season IME.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Yeah, true. Didn't really mean it that literally. They said box, he didn't. Hamilton made that decision. not the team.

And sure the next time he was pushed harder to pit, but if he was so sure and would've not come in, what could they do? Hamiltons race craft is probably best in the business and he has a history of disregarding any requests or commands if he felt it was not catering to his career. Think of all the times he butted heads with Rosberg and Alonso. All the times he was told to back down, but he never did. A sure cine of a champion.

Not saying it Was Hamiltons fault, just that if he felt that strongly, why come in and regret later?

Good thing Bottas got his act together and came thru for the team when it was needed the most. He was like a machine that day and obliterated the competition (Hamilton included). Just look at his quickest laps. He just wanted to show how he was just controlling the race and wanted everyone to see how much he had pace in store if needed. Where has that guy been the whole season?

I think a lot of things still went Hamiltons way even if they might (or not?) have made a mistake pitting?

If anyone else has a bad day, they end up in the bottom half. When Hamilton has a bad day he is fifth. I think over all decently managed damage control from Merc. And like it's been said before, as MB has been dominating so long that they are used to playing it safely the long game rather than risking anything. It's served them pretty darn well so far.

So fun and exciting season IME.

Hamilton, as well as being so fast,,, has always been a gentleman on track. 7-times world champion,,,, a record nobody thought could ever be achieved after Schumacher/Ferrari era. I get a kick out of watching Jenson Button talking/reflecting about his time as Lewis's team mate, Jenson just smiles and shakes his head in amazement of just how fast Lewis was.

Lewis pitted because he is a team player. They called him in, and despite the fact that he knew it was the wrong call, he came in anyway. Losing 2 positions was on the team,,,, not Lewis.

Although Lewis had started P11, he made it to P5 by lap 14, then P4 by lap 34 after being held up for quite a while behind Tsunoda,,, then Lewis was P3 (podium) by lap 48. (10 laps to go at that point)

Valtteri, who started the race on the front row, remained P1 until lap 37, then dropped to P2 until lap 46. He retook the lead from Leclerc after Leclerc pitted on lap 46. By lap 48, Leclerc had dropped by 3 positions, and stayed there 'til the end of the race.

The race data clearly showed that those drivers who had pitted, lost time and position by switching to new intermediates,,, especially in the latter stages of the race when a drier line was starting to emerge.

Carlos Sainz also put in a heck of an effort. He started from the back row and was P9 by lap 16. He finished P8. He had a terrible pit-stop and lost approximately 6 seconds in the pits.

Most of the pit stops occurred between lap 34 and lap 38.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

On from Turkey to the USA in Nov. we will have
our turkey's.

 

[Bart.s]

Yeah, COTA. Usually a Mercedes/Hamilton stonghold. Next 2 races after that, Mexico and Brazil, are both high altitude circuits where RB usually had the upper hand. Last 3 races, a toss up. Anyway, next season you US guys will have 2 races, as Miami is being added.

 

[Bobby2shots]

F-I-N-A-L-L-Y,,, we got to see a full race,,, no safety cars. What a great drive by Max, and a superb job by team Red Bull.

One thing mystifies me though; how did Max have DRS in the final laps, when he was in the lead? Hamilton's DRS didn't open at the end of lap 55/beginning of final lap 56, but Max's did. How is that possible???? Hmmmm. I think Max was less than one second ahead at that point. I'll replay it to check the gap.

Yep, at the start of lap 56 (Final lap) Lewis was .879 behind Max. You see Max's DRS activate, but not Lewis's;,,,, ***????

 

[Koop]

Max had DRS because he was less than 1 second behind a back marker in the detection zone. I guess Hamilton didn't get under one second until he was past the detection zone. No conspiracy here.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Max had DRS because he was less than 1 second behind a back marker in the detection zone. I guess Hamilton didn't get under one second until he was past the detection zone. No conspiracy here.

I'm not thinking "conspiracy",,, I simply want to know how Max's DRS would work when he's in the lead. Can the lead car use DRS on a backmarker that he's lapping? He's not passing for "position" at that point.

I can understand Hamiltons' DRS not working if he had already resigned himself to finishing second,,, but that doesn't make sense either, given the .879 second gap, with 1 lap remaining.

 

[Koop]

I'm not thinking "conspiracy",,, I want to know how Max's DRS would work when he's in the lead. Can the lead car use DRS on a car that he's lapping?

Yes.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Well I was expecting Hamilton to go more aggressive & try to pass Max in final laps, he had fresher tires. Max must have had good tire management to keep the lead & win the race.

Excuse my ignorance but what is DRS

My nephew who was just here on his honeymoon is F1 fan & went to this race. He is a car guy I'm leaving him my 1/18 model collection. He & Janice are Hamilton fans, I'm rooting for Max this was a good win for him.
Like to see two red bull Hondas on podium again.
Perez had a lot of Mexican fans there today in Texas. Good to see him put another Honda engine on the podium .

Hopefully he can do it again next race is Mexico.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Bart S.,,,,, what say you?? Enquiring minds wanna know. (referring to DRS to pass back-markers when you're P1 and not passing for track position)

According to Wikipedia it's OK. I wonder if the FIA agrees. I trust Wiki about as much as I trust a used-bridge salesman.

 

[Bobby2shots]

Well I was expecting Hamilton to go more aggressive & try to pass Max in final laps, he had fresher tires. Max must have had good tire management to keep the lead & win the race.

Excuse my ignorance but what is DRS

My nephew who was just here on his honeymoon is F1 fan & went to this race. He is a car guy I'm leaving him my 1/18 model collection. He & Janice are Hamilton fans, I'm rooting for Max this was a good win for him.
Like to see two red bull Hondas on podium again.
Perez had a lot of Mexican fans there today in Texas. Good to see him put another Honda engine on the podium .

Hopefully he can do it again next race is Mexico.

DRS is Drag Reduction System. There are designated areas on the track where DRS can be used to reduce drag from the rear wing. A flap will open, allowing some air to pass through the opening in the wing, reducing drag, and increasing that car's speed, and increasing the chances of passing the car in front. Once you reach the end of the DRS zone, the wing-flap closes, increasing that car's downforce. There has to be a gap of no more than 1 second between cars, in order for DRS to be activated. Typically, under normal conditions, DRS is not permitted on the first 3 laps of a race.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/drs-the-drag-reduction-system/

 

[Jovidah]

DRS on back markers has been a thing for quite some time (could be since its introduction, not sure on that). It's nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Bart.s]

Yes, you will get DRS if you are behind any car and has been since the introduction of DRS. It doesn't matter if this are back markers.

 

[mgardiner]

It was a great race! And put my team back on top in my Fantasy F1 league.