shinyunggyun
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Yes. I have the atoma 140
any reason to get a whetstone higher than 3000?
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I think the reason for really fine stones is often for fine food prep like sushi, where the surface texture of the cut food is important to the cuisine. I've heard chefs say that difference surfaces have different mouth feels and hold sauces differently, which changes flavor and quality for fine dining.
For home cooking where I'm not preparing many ingredients that will be eaten as-cut by a discerning audience, I really enjoy 3-4k edges for the balance of easy cutting feel and toothy, long-lasting edges. For butchery, a 400-1k edge really works well for rougher tendon and bone work, and having that SG500 will really help you make clean, consistent low-grit edges, as well as set foundation bevels on really dull knives. It's a great stone - was recommended to me on this forum for traveling to relative's houses and getting things into "usable" shape. Even if it dishes a bit, that's easy enough to fix. Throw some 60 grit sandpaper on a flat counter, spray with windex, and go to town. Make sure the missus isn't home.
I also want to echo @M1k3 - your SG2 knives have vanadium carbides, which are not easily cut by normal waterstones (which often use aluminum oxide as the abrasive for the stones in that 6-8k range). You can still cut the steel matrix that holds the carbides, but you can't shape the carbides themselves very easily. Here you can see the difference using Shapton vs. diamond stones on a highly alloyed steel (Carbides in Maxamet by Science of Sharp - lots of pictures, good stuff). If you wanted a sushi-cutting edge for a commercial kitchen, you'd probably want to look into a finer diamond stone to really make the most of the steel and stone together for that particular task. I have a couple highly alloyed knives (including SG2), and my user experience in the kitchen is pretty similar to what they discuss at SoS.
Steels like Hitachi White 1/2/3 or Takefu Shiro 1/2/3 are easily sharpened by AlOx and natural stones. I would imagine the ease of sharpening these simple steels is what led to their use in sushi knives like yanagiba. You get into a harmonious ecosystem between the knife needed for your food, and the stones needed for those knives. No need for fancy diamonds, just need a flat rock.
All this said, don't get too lost in the details. A 3k edge for SG2 is going to be great. Just wanted to ramble about the particular situation you asked about.
For home cooking where I'm not preparing many ingredients that will be eaten as-cut by a discerning audience, I really enjoy 3-4k edges for the balance of easy cutting feel and toothy, long-lasting edges. For butchery, a 400-1k edge really works well for rougher tendon and bone work, and having that SG500 will really help you make clean, consistent low-grit edges, as well as set foundation bevels on really dull knives. It's a great stone - was recommended to me on this forum for traveling to relative's houses and getting things into "usable" shape. Even if it dishes a bit, that's easy enough to fix. Throw some 60 grit sandpaper on a flat counter, spray with windex, and go to town. Make sure the missus isn't home.
I also want to echo @M1k3 - your SG2 knives have vanadium carbides, which are not easily cut by normal waterstones (which often use aluminum oxide as the abrasive for the stones in that 6-8k range). You can still cut the steel matrix that holds the carbides, but you can't shape the carbides themselves very easily. Here you can see the difference using Shapton vs. diamond stones on a highly alloyed steel (Carbides in Maxamet by Science of Sharp - lots of pictures, good stuff). If you wanted a sushi-cutting edge for a commercial kitchen, you'd probably want to look into a finer diamond stone to really make the most of the steel and stone together for that particular task. I have a couple highly alloyed knives (including SG2), and my user experience in the kitchen is pretty similar to what they discuss at SoS.
Steels like Hitachi White 1/2/3 or Takefu Shiro 1/2/3 are easily sharpened by AlOx and natural stones. I would imagine the ease of sharpening these simple steels is what led to their use in sushi knives like yanagiba. You get into a harmonious ecosystem between the knife needed for your food, and the stones needed for those knives. No need for fancy diamonds, just need a flat rock.
All this said, don't get too lost in the details. A 3k edge for SG2 is going to be great. Just wanted to ramble about the particular situation you asked about.
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MTC sale going on. Not sure if cheaper than your ebay find.
user 16756
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I bought two SG500 double thicks. should be set for the next couple of years I guess
@captaincaed Not to derail this discussion but do you happen to have any knowledge of Naniwa Pro vs Shapton Glass for sharpening SG2? I just picked up a Myojin SG2 which is my first PM knife and I was hoping my Naniwa Pro's would cut it just fine. If the SG stones would be better I will pick up a set though and was hoping for some feedback.
Starting with an Ouka is like drinking Romanee-Conti on your 18th birthday - it's all downhill from here 
I like @spaceconvoy 's point though; I'm sure most people here would want to see for themselves. And you might want a 6k edge on certain types of knife but not others, plus you can do fun things like going straight from 600 to 6k.
So I revise my earlier answer... go nuts! (But do still get an India).
I like @spaceconvoy 's point though; I'm sure most people here would want to see for themselves. And you might want a 6k edge on certain types of knife but not others, plus you can do fun things like going straight from 600 to 6k.
So I revise my earlier answer... go nuts! (But do still get an India).
Ah I should have sent you one, I have a fair few.
Though as you say - they're pretty cheap. I particularly like the Medium, which is 240. Though I guess that's ANSI so maybe 350 ish JIS (?)
Looks like some great deals. But I have most of that stuff. I don't see Norton India stones.
Thanks, but I'm definitely going to buy one on eBay. There's 8*2" labeled bench stones easily available for under $40 all-in and I would rather have a vintage one than new just because.
I absolutely love my fine India. One of my favorite stones. I do use mine with oil but lots of folks do not.
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Sorry if this is a derail, but do the diamond stones work for compound edges? If you us SG up to 2k or 4k and then finish with a finer diamond stone, can you leave some of that tooth?
Jovidah
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I like my Arashiyama. I like it a lot more than my Naniwa Pro/Chosera 5000 - which I don't like (even though I do like my 1k and 3k; it just doesn't share its positive traits). That's the only 2 I have an opinion though.
Regarding the advantage of higher grits. Main perk for me is less bruising of product. So less liquid loss, less crying cutting onions stuff like apples stays fresh much better (no browning). But I honestly don't know what grit is optimal or where the diminishing returns start. To some extend you can also get a really fine result off a lower grit stone if you apply enough time, effort and expertise.
On bevels I would only go higher if you have a fetish for mirror polish. Higher polish may look pretty, but it also makes food adhere a lot better to the blade. I don't know where the sweet spot is, but I'm inclined to say significantly lower than 3k.
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For edges, I love SG. The JNS 6K is a great stone. I use it more for polishing than edges, but it works great at both.
For things like apples, the cut surface is much nicer; and there is a different cutting feel. I like to keep a short suji with a high grit polish for that kind of work.
For things like apples, the cut surface is much nicer; and there is a different cutting feel. I like to keep a short suji with a high grit polish for that kind of work.
I'm sorry to say I haven't tried either! I tend to use a JKI 2k and then diamond 6k if I'm feeling fancy.
There may be shades of difference, but if the cutting abrasive in the stone is the same, then I'd expect similar results if using the same grit.
Maybe someone else has some insight?
Yes you'd be able to. Just don't do enough passes to fully get rid of the previous teeth. Diamond stones are a little slower than regular stones, so the previous teeth won't disappear instantaneously.
Steampunk
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Sure... I'd say there's a number of reasons to go way past ~3K, or - conversely, not to even go that high.
Some steels are able to take and hold extremely high grit edges, without losing their bite, and seem to just keep begging for more. Akifusa's SRS-15 is a good example of such a steel, but there are others... In such a case, why not use finer stones that get the blade effectively sharper, and let you maintain it with less metal removal over the life of the knife?
As mentioned above, the added refinement has some benefits on some ingredients... I especially like knives I'm using around herbs to be rocking 6-8K+ edges, or higher if I'm using strops or naturals. I find it crushes them less than ~1K edges. Fruit & veg also doesn't oxidize as fast when cut with very high grit edges, which doesn't always matter, but sometimes it does. If you're pre-cutting ingredients for later use (Preparing veggies & dip for a party, for example.), this can genuinely help keep them fresher.
When learning sharpening, I also find it wise to have a finer stone in one's arsenal, as it makes the process of deburring easier, and also wastes less metal when you undoubtedly spend more time on the stone chasing an edge than an experienced sharpener does. This goes against the advice to newbies to 'Just pick up a 1k stone, until you know how to sharpen', but it's something I believe in strongly.
There's also an argument, that higher polishes on edges create less stress risers, which leads to longer lasting edges. I'd say that I can observe this on some steels... ZDP-189, and Shirogami / 10xx to name two, which is interesting, because they're at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of alloy. With Shirogami/10xx in the kitchen, I'd possibly attest this to the added polish slowing acid erosion of the apex, more than stress risers. With 10xx in woodcarving tools, the highly polished edges definitely seem to stay sharp longer. On ZDP-189, coarse edges for EDC just don't hold as long as when I take it to 6K+. In the kitchen, same deal. Loses shaving sharp off of an 800 grit stone fast, but holds that shaving sharpness on 2-3 micron or finer edges really well... Steels with high vanadium & tungsten carbide counts seem to behave a bit differently, and hold coarser edges much better than pure carbon, or even some chromium carbide steels.
Conversely, some knives just can't make use of all that extra refinement... Victorinox, for example, uses a steel that's an utter waste putting anything higher than a ~1K edge on. It loses bite at higher grits, loses the ability to cut into a tomato quicker with a polished edge than a coarse one, and dulls so much during normal use that fine stones simply don't have enough grunt to efficiently bring the edge back from dull to sharp afterwards, so it's not like they can help extend the lifespan of the knife. Wusthof, Henckles, etc, are similar. Wustie's I'll give a strop with some buffing compound (A black tripoli, about 2500 grit. Same thing I'll use to help finish off Shun's.), but more because I find them to be an even bigger pain to deburr. I'll sometimes do the same on paring knives used for peeling from all of these brands.
As a rule of thumb, I would advise stopping at the grit level that can also touch-up the edge from normal dulling on that blade, and get it back to 100%. That's as high as that steel can 'practically' hold. If it requires more than one grit to re-do the apex once it's started to dull, you're possibly finishing it too high, or are pushing the blade too long before resharpening it.
For SRS-15, that touch-up point is something around a good Coticule, or a 1-Micron diamond strop on wood, or an 8-16K synth. For Aogami #1/#2 I find it's around the 3-4K point, or a BBW with medium slurry. For soft German/Swiss stainless, I find an 800 grit SiC stone is about perfect for touch-ups/use. For Ginsan or Shirogami I like pre-finisher J-Nats that are around the 8-10K level, a 6K synth, or a Hard Arkansas, depending on the sharpening style... These can all pull the blade back to 100% on one stone once it's trained, for my usage, once I notice the blade getting dull.
If you sharpen blades too finely, that final step won't necessarily be able to restore the edge on its own in 1-step. For example, 0.5 micron does not restore a dulled SRS-15 blade. You have to break down to at least 1-micron, to get the edge back from dull. Thus, if you finish at 0.5 micron, restoring that edge will be at least a 2-step process.
I just find that being able to touch-up in 1-step, on your finishing stone - whatever that grit is - tends to make the most sense. Whatever the finest grit you can touch-up on, is what your blade can actually handle in terms of refinement. What that grit is, varies depending upon the steel, HT, geometry, and how far past 'starting to feel dull' you push it.
Some steels are able to take and hold extremely high grit edges, without losing their bite, and seem to just keep begging for more. Akifusa's SRS-15 is a good example of such a steel, but there are others... In such a case, why not use finer stones that get the blade effectively sharper, and let you maintain it with less metal removal over the life of the knife?
As mentioned above, the added refinement has some benefits on some ingredients... I especially like knives I'm using around herbs to be rocking 6-8K+ edges, or higher if I'm using strops or naturals. I find it crushes them less than ~1K edges. Fruit & veg also doesn't oxidize as fast when cut with very high grit edges, which doesn't always matter, but sometimes it does. If you're pre-cutting ingredients for later use (Preparing veggies & dip for a party, for example.), this can genuinely help keep them fresher.
When learning sharpening, I also find it wise to have a finer stone in one's arsenal, as it makes the process of deburring easier, and also wastes less metal when you undoubtedly spend more time on the stone chasing an edge than an experienced sharpener does. This goes against the advice to newbies to 'Just pick up a 1k stone, until you know how to sharpen', but it's something I believe in strongly.
There's also an argument, that higher polishes on edges create less stress risers, which leads to longer lasting edges. I'd say that I can observe this on some steels... ZDP-189, and Shirogami / 10xx to name two, which is interesting, because they're at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of alloy. With Shirogami/10xx in the kitchen, I'd possibly attest this to the added polish slowing acid erosion of the apex, more than stress risers. With 10xx in woodcarving tools, the highly polished edges definitely seem to stay sharp longer. On ZDP-189, coarse edges for EDC just don't hold as long as when I take it to 6K+. In the kitchen, same deal. Loses shaving sharp off of an 800 grit stone fast, but holds that shaving sharpness on 2-3 micron or finer edges really well... Steels with high vanadium & tungsten carbide counts seem to behave a bit differently, and hold coarser edges much better than pure carbon, or even some chromium carbide steels.
Conversely, some knives just can't make use of all that extra refinement... Victorinox, for example, uses a steel that's an utter waste putting anything higher than a ~1K edge on. It loses bite at higher grits, loses the ability to cut into a tomato quicker with a polished edge than a coarse one, and dulls so much during normal use that fine stones simply don't have enough grunt to efficiently bring the edge back from dull to sharp afterwards, so it's not like they can help extend the lifespan of the knife. Wusthof, Henckles, etc, are similar. Wustie's I'll give a strop with some buffing compound (A black tripoli, about 2500 grit. Same thing I'll use to help finish off Shun's.), but more because I find them to be an even bigger pain to deburr. I'll sometimes do the same on paring knives used for peeling from all of these brands.
As a rule of thumb, I would advise stopping at the grit level that can also touch-up the edge from normal dulling on that blade, and get it back to 100%. That's as high as that steel can 'practically' hold. If it requires more than one grit to re-do the apex once it's started to dull, you're possibly finishing it too high, or are pushing the blade too long before resharpening it.
For SRS-15, that touch-up point is something around a good Coticule, or a 1-Micron diamond strop on wood, or an 8-16K synth. For Aogami #1/#2 I find it's around the 3-4K point, or a BBW with medium slurry. For soft German/Swiss stainless, I find an 800 grit SiC stone is about perfect for touch-ups/use. For Ginsan or Shirogami I like pre-finisher J-Nats that are around the 8-10K level, a 6K synth, or a Hard Arkansas, depending on the sharpening style... These can all pull the blade back to 100% on one stone once it's trained, for my usage, once I notice the blade getting dull.
If you sharpen blades too finely, that final step won't necessarily be able to restore the edge on its own in 1-step. For example, 0.5 micron does not restore a dulled SRS-15 blade. You have to break down to at least 1-micron, to get the edge back from dull. Thus, if you finish at 0.5 micron, restoring that edge will be at least a 2-step process.
I just find that being able to touch-up in 1-step, on your finishing stone - whatever that grit is - tends to make the most sense. Whatever the finest grit you can touch-up on, is what your blade can actually handle in terms of refinement. What that grit is, varies depending upon the steel, HT, geometry, and how far past 'starting to feel dull' you push it.
To riff of Steampunk, I'm playing with some MagnaCut now to see what kind of edge it will hold over time.
I think it's worth restating also that the edge geometry matters a lot with edge retention. There's nuance here with toothy edge vs. keen edges, but if you're testing the way engineers do, it matters really:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/08/05/how-to-design-knives-that-do-not-fail/
Just to say, if you're comparing your SG2 knife to some other knife, be really aware of how different the geometry is.
I think it's worth restating also that the edge geometry matters a lot with edge retention. There's nuance here with toothy edge vs. keen edges, but if you're testing the way engineers do, it matters really:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/08/05/how-to-design-knives-that-do-not-fail/
Just to say, if you're comparing your SG2 knife to some other knife, be really aware of how different the geometry is.
I have a Makoto SG2 gyuto and think the Chosera 3K (I have the thin arata version) leaves a great edge. I've not tried the Shaptons though.
Even if you don't believe in sharpening higher than 3k, higher grit stones make for some very nice strops .. though at a premium. I went through a phase of various strops with various compounds but then found 16k SG just beats all compounds with less mess and more consistency and convenience.
