Any suggestions for reading history of knife? (Especially kitchen knives)

[demirtasem]

I’m really curious about this question. I searched in KKF but couldn’t find any discussion regarding to that. I really wonder how the culture affect the aesthetics, shapes, steels... For example first come to my mind, why German knives are thicker and softer and Japanese are thinner, more brittle etc. I just wanted to know the sociologic reasons behind, rather than knife types or makers history. (I know that’s also important)

I found some books/chapters in books in Amazon, (Josh Donald’s Sharp or Consider the Fork by Bee Wilson) and some others in Google Scholar, also some info on vendor’s websites (Korin, Knifewear). But maybe I’m missing other good sources because of my mediocre searching skills. Thanks.

 

[Blerghle]

I haven't read it, but Knife: The Culture, Craft and Cult of the Cook's Knife looks like an attempt at it. At an older location of the forum, I remember Chad Ward being a member. He wrote An Edge In The Kitchen, though I think that's more on maintenance/technique than history.

 

[The Edge]

A large part of the history of knives comes down to the history of materials. Think stone age, bronze age, etc. Then a large shift in history with the industrial revolution, where price became a large factor in making knives (making them affordable for everyone). Then a large shift in material again around WW2, when steel became scarce, and metallurgy became more advanced.

Toughness and hardness of blades is more of a philosophical approach in design. Softer steel is easier to maintain, and also is more adaptable to user error. Harder steel is harder to maintain, but offers better precision, finer cuts, but requires knowledge to not keep it working well.

Western ideology tends to design for the most common, or largest market, while Eastern (specifically Japan) ideology is more geared towards making the best tool possible for the few that can use and maintain.

All of this is general, and you'll find outliers here and there that don't mix well with the norm.

 

[demirtasem]

Toughness and hardness of blades is more of a philosophical approach in design. Softer steel is easier to maintain, and also is more adaptable to user error. Harder steel is harder to maintain, but offers better precision, finer cuts, but requires knowledge to not keep it working well.

Western ideology tends to design for the most common, or largest market, while Eastern (specifically Japan) ideology is more geared towards making the best tool possible for the few that can use and maintain.

Thank you. Yea besides mass production I was asking are there any correlations between what you grow in those areas. For example maybe knives are softer because root veggies was grown more on early ages. I'm just making up, I don't know.

All of this is general, and you'll find outliers here and there that don't mix well with the norm.

No doubt on that.

 

[demirtasem]

I haven't read it, but Knife: The Culture, Craft and Cult of the Cook's Knife looks like an attempt at it. At an older location of the forum, I remember Chad Ward being a member. He wrote An Edge In The Kitchen, though I think that's more on maintenance/technique than history.

Yes, maybe I can find some info on Knife: The Culture, Craft and Cult of the Cook's Knife. Thanks!

 

[dafox]

Yes, maybe I can find some info on Knife: The Culture, Craft and Cult of the Cook's Knife. Thanks!

What do people think of this book, ive read the Amazon reviews, up in the air about getting it.

 

[demirtasem]

Well what I found so far is more introduction info like this link. Fun to read but I need to go deeper than that.

Edit: Link correction

 

[nexus1935]

I've read Sharp by Josh Donald and I think you might enjoy it, as it's central story is how European and Japanese knives developed independently and then how they eventually crossed paths (eg. yo-handled Japanese knives). That was the first half of the book, which I found interestin. The second half were all recipes though, which I thought was really unrelated to knives and felt like filler to make the book big enough to be a hardcover book... (just my 2 cents).

 

[danemonji]

Thank you. Yea besides mass production I was asking are there any correlations between what you grow in those areas. For example maybe knives are softer because root veggies was grown more on early ages. I'm just making up, I don't know.




No doubt on that.

Just try to read more on the history of Japan and their warfare vs Europe and you will start to get a picture. History has all the information you need to understand the traits of a present culture. If you think that in Japan the most important society members the samurai, were part of an elite military group that ruled medieval Japan for over 800 years. That they lived and died by the sword. That their armor was light ( to travel through Japan's rugged landscape)and that most of the fighting on the field would be confrunting your oponent, besting him in swordfight and take his head as trophy for recognition. Then you would see that in such conditions the most suitable weapons would have been slim long swords, to tare and slash through the light armor, very good at dismemberment. In a word flexible (not to break) yet resiliant cutting edge( to keep cutting through days of fighting). That's how we got the hard high carbon steel swords( made of tamahagane) and differential quenching for a soft spine, or cheaper san-mai builds with a soft steel jacket and hard carbon steel core. Now imagine 800 years of perfecting these forging techniques. And since all the swords were banned in 1876, all that industry switched to cutlery.
In medieval Europe warfare on the other hand, the most advanced military group, were mounted knights ( noblemen ) in very heavy, tank like armor, wich would favor blunt weapons or heavy swords. The killing would be mostly done by brute force(bludgeoning or piercing), rather than slashing and cutting. Therefore you would just need masive weapons with rough or no cutting edge to just hit your oponent. The steel would be softer for maintenance, so no need for high carbon steel that would be brittle. So european smithing had no need for technological advancement in high carbon steels or sword geometry builds.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Just try to read more on the history of Japan and their warfare vs Europe and you will start to get a picture. History has all the information you need to understand the traits of a present culture. If you think that in Japan the most important society members the samurai, were part of an elite military group that ruled medieval Japan for over 800 years. That they lived and died by the sword. That their armor was light ( to travel through Japan's rugged landscape)and that most of the fighting on the field would be confrunting your oponent, besting him in swordfight and take his head as trophy for recognition. Then you would see that in such conditions the most suitable weapons would have been slim long swords, to tare and slash through the light armor, very good at dismemberment. In a word flexible (not to break) yet resiliant cutting edge( to keep cutting through days of fighting). That's how we got the hard high carbon steel swords( made of tamahagane) and differential quenching for a soft spine, or cheaper san-mai builds with a soft steel jacket and hard carbon steel core. Now imagine 800 years of perfecting these forging techniques. And since all the swords were banned in 1876, all that industry switched to cutlery.

Basically true although with one or two caveats. I'm in the process of purchasing my first katana. Initially I was going to get an Edo era blade cos, well they look good. But once you dig a little deeper into the history of Japanese sword making you understand that the best blades were made in the Heian Kamakura and Nanbokucho era's. These were made to perform as it was a period of turmoil and war. Most of these blades were tachi or longer katana. As peace replaced war and stability reigned so the swords became more objects of status. The skills and techniques learned over generations to make the functionally superior koto blades were slowly lost yet the reverence continued, which is why so many of the better examples still exist 600-1000 years later, as prized possessions of the ruling classes. The majority of these koto blades were reduced in length (o-suriage) to meet more contemporary needs and fashion, not because no one was making blades but because they were considered better. The raw materials like iron sand were getting harder to source and the quality diminished in addition to the experience. Gedaito and contemporary swords are equivalent to the earlier swords as modern swordsmiths have a clearer understanding of the science of metallurgy. So progress doesn't always follow a linear upwards tract. LED TV's is another good example of a technology that is trumped by what preceded it.

 

[danemonji]

Basically true although with one or two caveats. I'm in the process of purchasing my first katana. Initially I was going to get an Edo era blade cos, well they look good. But once you dig a little deeper into the history of Japanese sword making you understand that the best blades were made in the Heian Kamakura and Nanbokucho era's. These were made to perform as it was a period of turmoil and war. Most of these blades were tachi or longer katana. As peace replaced war and stability reigned so the swords became more objects of status. The skills and techniques learned over generations to make the functionally superior koto blades were slowly lost yet the reverence continued, which is why so many of the better examples still exist 600-1000 years later, as prized possessions of the ruling classes. The majority of these koto blades were reduced in length (o-suriage) to meet more contemporary needs and fashion, not because no one was making blades but because they were considered better. The raw materials like iron sand were getting harder to source and the quality diminished in addition to the experience. Gedaito and contemporary swords are equivalent to the earlier swords as modern swordsmiths have a clearer understanding of the science of metallurgy. So progress doesn't always follow a linear upwards tract. LED TV's is another good example of a technology that is trumped by what preceded it.

Very good reading. But the OP was just asking what drives the difference of steels soft vs hard in various cultures. And my point of view is that historic(medieval) warefare basically determines that culture's metalurgical tendencies.

 

[demirtasem]

Basically true although with one or two caveats. I'm in the process of purchasing my first katana. Initially I was going to get an Edo era blade cos, well they look good. But once you dig a little deeper into the history of Japanese sword making you understand that the best blades were made in the Heian Kamakura and Nanbokucho era's. These were made to perform as it was a period of turmoil and war. Most of these blades were tachi or longer katana. As peace replaced war and stability reigned so the swords became more objects of status. The skills and techniques learned over generations to make the functionally superior koto blades were slowly lost yet the reverence continued, which is why so many of the better examples still exist 600-1000 years later, as prized possessions of the ruling classes. The majority of these koto blades were reduced in length (o-suriage) to meet more contemporary needs and fashion, not because no one was making blades but because they were considered better. The raw materials like iron sand were getting harder to source and the quality diminished in addition to the experience. Gedaito and contemporary swords are equivalent to the earlier swords as modern swordsmiths have a clearer understanding of the science of metallurgy. So progress doesn't always follow a linear upwards tract. LED TV's is another good example of a technology that is trumped by what preceded it.

That's what I started to think after reading some. I was thinking maybe swords and medieval cutlery are two separate lines and coming from different axis, but it's really impossible to differentiate from swords and the culture behind. I'm on it. Thanks for your explanation.

 

[cotedupy]

What do people think of this book, ive read the Amazon reviews, up in the air about getting it.

I'd definitely recommend Tim H's book; he's a good writer, clearly knows what he's talking about, and some lovely photography / design. It's not massively in depth regarding history but does touch on it, and there won't be a lot of new information that couldn't be found by searching these forums. But a good read, and enough detail to keep knife geeks interested.