Anyone have experience with the Ryusen Tanganryu?

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Cyrilix

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I'm looking at the Santoku because I don't have one but experience with any other form of it is appreciated as well. This is one hell of a sexy knife. I love the hybrid wooden handle plus western bolster combo, makes for a very nice hybrid look. It's VG-10 but @JBroida claims that it's an extremely well heat treated VG-10. As long as the carbides aren't too crazy and the blade can reach great edge stability at acute angles (10 dps or lower), then I'm happy to have it.

How does it cut? Edge stable? Not chippy? Easy to sharpen?
 

refcast

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Only got to handle a 240 gyuto at JKI a couple years ago. It really does feel like a wa-western hybrid.

Hidden tang like japanese.
Bolster like western, which makes it more 'middle' heavy.
Smaller and more polished handle like western.

From feeling the edge, it felt like it was definitely on the crisper side of stainless steels. I think it would be crisper feeling and sharpening than Ashi Ginga stainless, for instance.

It's reallllly pretty.
 

Benuser

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I guess you may confidingly rely on Mr Broida about the heat treatment.
Apart from this very steel or knife, why do you require an edge that will be problematic with any steel when used for board work? Or are you considering a micro-bevel?
 

Cyrilix

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I guess you may confidingly rely on Mr Broida about the heat treatment.
Apart from this very steel or knife, why do you require an edge that will be problematic with any steel when used for board work? Or are you considering a micro-bevel?
Is it problematic? I go for 10 dps on my Watanabe Pro nakiri and when I asked him if should sharpen at 10-15, he said that the edge would be tougher if I did, which seems to imply that the default angle is even more acute.
 

Benuser

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If you keep it thin behind the edge, you shouldn't experience serious performance loss with a more conservative edge. But the difference in edge retention is huge.
An inclusive angle of 20° is too fragile and will require permanent touching-up. Often OOTB edges are that acute, not so much to be used as such, but to ease sharpening by the end-user. With only a few strokes you have the edge you want.
 

Cyrilix

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Larrin's articles essentially conclude that the more acute your angle, the better your edge retention because even if your edge dulls quickly, the acuteness allows even a duller edge to perform better than a higher angle edge. The obvious caveat to this is that the edge must be stable and not chippy with the amount of exerted force. So what I get from this is that you want the most acute edge possible that is stable. What is that angle? I sincerely believe this depends on the steel, heat treat, and your cutting motions (which affect the force applied). Chopping like a bone cleaver is going to require a different edge than slicing sashimi.

I guess I'm in the testing phase to see whether a Watanabe Blue #2 can handle the angles I'm currently using. If not, I'll definitely put a microbevel.
 

Benuser

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With a stainless the stability is the decisive factor. Ask Jon, he knows this particular knife and its heat treatment.
 

Barclid

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I If you keep it thin behind the edge, you shouldn't experience serious performance loss with a more conservative edge. But the difference in edge retention is huge.
An inclusive angle of 20° is too fragile and will require permanent touching-up. Often OOTB edges are that acute, not so much to be used as such, but to ease sharpening by the end-user. With only a few strokes you have the edge you want.
I'd question that statement. I know of no knife makers finishing their knives at acute angles that would say they intend for the user to increase the edge angle. If anything, most would recommend thinning even more to improve performance. In fact the most common issue that I see with most user's knives is that they've sharpened at a sufficiently high angle to detrimentally impact performance.

Obviously it's largely dependent upon what you'll be using your knife for but there's no real reason to take a knife meant for precision cuts and increase the edge angle provided your skill is such that you are confident you won't mess it up with poor technique. A micro bevel can be applied in such cases for stability but conflating "micro bevel" and "edge angle" is problematic when a lot of newer users don't have the frame of reference to differentiate the two. It's very easy to over do a micro bevel.
 
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rick alen

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Larrin's articles essentially conclude that the more acute your angle, the better your edge retention because even if your edge dulls quickly, the acuteness allows even a duller edge to perform better than a higher angle edge.

I guess I'm in the testing phase to see whether a Watanabe Blue #2 can handle the angles I'm currently using. If not, I'll definitely put a microbevel.
This was for a CARTA test Lorin did, pure slicing. For more typical kitchen work microbevel is your friend. Start with a <20 inclusive angle certainly, then MB. you might also consider the lead-in angle on some lasers is <4 inclusive.
 

Benuser

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In real life board contact is the most important dulling factor.
 

HRC_64

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I know of no knife makers finishing their knives at acute angles that would say they intend for the user to increase the edge angle.
Shigefusa, Watanabe, Takamura ...
 

Cyrilix

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This was for a CARTA test Lorin did, pure slicing. For more typical kitchen work microbevel is your friend. Start with a <20 inclusive angle certainly, then MB. you might also consider the lead-in angle on some lasers is <4 inclusive.
I just touched up my Nakiri today and put on a high angle microbevel afterwards. Hopefully this will work well.
 

Cyrilix

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Shigefusa, Watanabe, Takamura ...
Are you sure their intention is for users to increase the angle? Where did you hear this? Why not just have users maintain the default angle?
 

Barclid

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Shigefusa, Watanabe, Takamura ...
That's funny because I've had multiple conversations with Terukazu Takamura about sharpening their knives and he has never once expressed that view so I'm curious where you're pulling that from?
 

HRC_64

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That's funny...
Three things for the Takamura, and really just about any other performance knife for that matter - microbevel, microbevel, microbevel.
I was talking to So from Japan tool and he was telling me knives that come from shigefusa have a very low degree bevel and they expect their users to put whatever kind of microbevel they want on their knives when they receive them....
wat sends out all his knives with impossible to maintain zero edges...
From others' reports on here, Watanabe has been known to ship knives with a very sharp but thin and aggressive zero or almost zero edge. I'd imagine this kind of chipping will calm down after a full sharpening progression and maybe setting a more conservative edge/micro bevel. This has proven true for most knives I've owned, maybe amplified with honyaki's high hrc. I'd say it's no cause to fret just yet
 
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Barclid

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1. Expectation is not recommendation.

2. None of those people are the knifemakers themselves.

3. Microbevels can't be considered the same as a secondary bevel.

And AGAIN, I know for a fact that Takamura does not recommend a microbevel either. They simply strop on canvas or denim following their regular sharpening and thinning.
 

HRC_64

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"of course you don't need to ever need to re-sharpen our knives, they are pefect..." :eek:
 

labor of love

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I have no dog in this dispute but I will say that I’ve used 2 different takamura knives ootb in that last 2 monthes and both microchipped like crazy.
Touched them both up on a rika and they’ve been quite fine since then. I’ve used plenty of knives w ootb edges before and never had a problem this bad. One of the knives in question was a petty that hardly received any board work at all which made it seem even more surprising. Moving forward I will definitely buy more takamura knives because I do love them but ootb edge is ridiculously delicate and I will adjust them before use.
 

F-Flash

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Maker sharpens knife so steep, that it microships like hell, and still suggest to keep sharpening like that, instead of microbeveling it?

Sounds logical.
 

rick alen

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All right, my actual experience:
I have a Geshin Kagero, SRS-15 steel, it can handle 24deg inclusive angle on the board.
My Takamura Migaki, R2 steel, cannot handle a 24deg inclusive angle on the board, it will microchip away in no time.
440C stainless, microbevel
Conventional carbons, well they touch up pretty easy.
Shun VG-10, ahahahahaha! Don't even get involved.
Ryusen VG-10, well, I'll deffer to Jon on how to deal with that one. I believe VG-10 does best on the board with 30+deg inclusive
 

Eloh

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I'm not sure if I understand the point of discussion. But what I know is when you want to use takamura/watanabe blades on the board you need a miceobevel or you get chips with first board contact

The makers intention doesn't really matter imo
 

rick alen

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deg=degree

I'm not sure if I understand the point of discussion. But what I know is when you want to use takamura/watanabe blades on the board you need a miceobevel or you get chips with first board contact

The makers intention doesn't really matter imo
True this, sellers say all sorts of things that don't agree with real-world experience.
 

Benuser

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That's exactly why the factory edge is hardly relevant and should not be a reference. Put your own on it.
 

Cyrilix

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That's exactly why the factory edge is hardly relevant and should not be a reference. Put your own on it.
Fair enough. At the end of the day, I like acute angles on all of my knives except for the suji. On a hi soft board, if they can't handle controlled chopping at 6-10 dps with microbevel, then they're too delicate. I haven't had any of my knives fail me yet.

I forget what we were actually arguing about. In summary, this is what I expect from my knives and thus far, Watanabe blue #2 is doing fine with this.
 

HRC_64

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I think the discussion here devolved from the OP post about wanting VG-10 heat-treated to work at 10dps per side,
and other people from experience saying thats not a great way to buy a knife, especially a VG-10 knife.

For the purposes of the OP, the relevant issue is whether or not VG-10 by ryusen is a usable knife steel
and I would guess that it is, and the best person to ask would be JKI or Jon on this forum.

IMHO, VG-10 is another topic of conversation. As is edge geometry vs edge stability. etc.
 

labor of love

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That's exactly why the factory edge is hardly relevant and should not be a reference. Put your own on it.
Haha yeah I usually do. Lots of the time I’m not satisfied w ootb edges so I do sharpen before use. Takamura however comes with a really great factory edge so I just rolled with it.
 

Barclid

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I was focusing almost entirely on the suggestion that knives are produced with acute angles solely for ease of sharpening by the end user. The implication is that no knife-maker is really recommending you maintain that geometry on your knife and instead increase the edge angle to suit your needs. I never meant to say that you should not be putting a microbevel on your knife, I just wanted to make it clear that there's a pretty significant distinction between a microbevel and an increase in secondary bevel angle.

I don't think any knife-maker would specifically recommend against putting a microbevel on your knife or even increasing edge angle if you determined that was best for your needs. The point is that the knife is being made thin for cutting performance and if you want to maintain the same cutting performance, it's expected for you to keep it thin. You can keep a knife thin and apply a microbevel to increase edge stability, yes, I understand that. If you increase the secondary (apex) bevel to something like 15-20 degrees per side for instance, instead of simply putting a microbevel on your knife, and you continue to do so over the life of the knife without thinning it you're going to impact performance. My point was that pretty much any of these knife-makers are going to recommend that you thin your knife a little each time you sharpen it. Whether you prefer to end that thinning and sharpening with a microbevel to increase edge stability or not thinning at all and simply increasing the apex bevel angle, that's entirely your prerogative and there's nothing wrong with it as long as it suits your needs.
 

Benuser

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I was focusing almost entirely on the suggestion that knives are produced with acute angles solely for ease of sharpening by the end user. The implication is that no knife-maker is really recommending you maintain that geometry on your knife and instead increase the edge angle to suit your needs. I never meant to say that you should not be putting a microbevel on your knife, I just wanted to make it clear that there's a pretty significant distinction between a microbevel and an increase in secondary bevel angle.

I don't think any knife-maker would specifically recommend against putting a microbevel on your knife or even increasing edge angle if you determined that was best for your needs. The point is that the knife is being made thin for cutting performance and if you want to maintain the same cutting performance, it's expected for you to keep it thin. You can keep a knife thin and apply a microbevel to increase edge stability, yes, I understand that. If you increase the secondary (apex) bevel to something like 15-20 degrees per side for instance, instead of simply putting a microbevel on your knife, and you continue to do so over the life of the knife without thinning it you're going to impact performance. My point was that pretty much any of these knife-makers are going to recommend that you thin your knife a little each time you sharpen it. Whether you prefer to end that thinning and sharpening with a microbevel to increase edge stability or not thinning at all and simply increasing the apex bevel angle, that's entirely your prerogative and there's nothing wrong with it as long as it suits your needs.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/primary-secondary-bevel-discrepancy.2231/
 
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