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Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by SaladApe, Sep 19, 2019.
I just bought a kono white 2 Fuji so ill be moving to that as my daily kitchen driver.
i didnt know iron clad version existed!!
JNS sold them many years ago
It was under the label Toshihirosaku iirc.
That’s the one
Tsukiji Masahisa? Thats a tourist-trap knife for anyone who went to Tsukiji. Slightly better than Shuns and Miyabis but thats not saying much.
Thanks for that info.
The reason that yoshi was so bad ass is because it was old stock and made before what’s his name retired.
@panda reg cheap wakui hairline is pretty nice too best deal sub $200 besides Tanaka
man... i'm not sure i agree with that entirely. I've seen quite nice things in there before, bought a couple many years back too. The prices were fair. Of course, they had more stuff from seki than some of the other nearby shops, so i can see how you might have felt that way. The lady who runs it was super nice when i bought things (albiet a long time ago).
You're mixing up some of the science there. Don't forget that sharpening cuts through the grains of steel, throwing a spanner in your statement above.
If you had a White #3 blade with grains the size of marbles, you could still get it razor sharp... way sharper than anyone needs in a kitchen.
Carbides are slightly different, but that's a topic for another thread.
The knives felt a little overpriced to me. I bought a VG10 Kikuichi in Nara for about 70 bucks. I saw and handled a similar knife at Masahisa for $250 and that turned me off I guess. Nice knife with decent F+F, but I got turned off by the price. Maybe the situation's changed, its been a while since I was there too.
Most enjoyable thread - thanks for all the answers!
For me, I like the feel of carbon on the stones - hands down a winner over stainless.
I have a confession to make: I've been using the green-handled kitchen knock-about knives and the sheer lack of hassle is... seductive. But I'm hoping a thin stainless clad w2 240 will give me some of the joy I need in my life right now.
Panda, yeah, the semi-stainless Heiji has been my grail for a while.
In my opinion as a pro chef, shirogami is the worst steel in kitchen.
Super chippy and the badest edge retention. Nearly any knifesteel ist better (happy discussion!)
Nom nom nom
I am not a pro chef, but a knifemaker and grinder for pro chefs an like cooking or preparing food for my 6 dogs....
most effective imho ist Global or swedish steel like AEBL ect and a honing steel, best compromise regarding edgeholding an ease of sharpening 1.2562, V4E, CPM 3V....
longest edgeholding K390 V23 or REX 121, but needs longer time and more skills to sharpen properly.
Its easy to get all steels to HHT5, and only sharpend to 1-5K steel will not make any difference regarding sharpness in no time.
Fine grain steel will only make a little difference sharpend very fine like for rarzors.
But with the right sharpening stuff you can get even HSSE without PM and large carbides to HHT5
Only w2 in my kit at the moment is on my ginga suji, which is monosteel, hardly sees any board contact and is only used to slice protein. Only white steel is a maboroshi gyuto.
Definitely no iron clad knives at work. Favorite steel for work is r2, tanakas r2 if possible.
Tanaka R2 and Tanaka Ginsan are up there for me too
I would never use shirogami in my kitchen. I'm a friend of stainless steels, so AEB-L or 14C28N combined with a high quality honing rod (dick micro) is my first choice. If carbon, I'd prefer 1.2519 with a dick micro or 1.2562 with stones.
Larrin's testing over on KnifeSteelNerds showed that 1095 has surprisingly low toughness, which translates to a chippy edge. Perhaps Shirogami #2 (which is 99.5% the same) has the same issue?
Yes Shiro has low toughness and with waterhardening and only a few seconds temper even lower, with modern HT it works decent but stll low end
Kippington, you are brave to stand up for scientific experiments & evidences. May the force be with you
How obsessed are you with a fresh edge? Like, fresh off the finishing stone? If you want this sorta fresh edge all the time or every other day in a pro environment or something it makes sense to use shirogami steel. If your goal is the freshest edge you might as well grab the steel that sharpens up easy and quick because you’ll never be happy with a week old edge.
White 1 and White 2 doesn’t have the best edge retention but in the right hands it doesn’t need it.
I understand why some love it and also why others don’t.
I am very obsessed with sharpness
One way for sure is to touch up several times a day, but i like knifes holding a fresh very keen edge for a longer time
I think toughness, a good grind and good edge retention should be the main target for professional users. It will be always a matter of sharpening angle (over 35 degree), the matching finish for the steel etc.
In pro environment for a few tasks iron cladding is not acceptable, stainless clad is also not ideal because of it`s softness, but works ok.
What sharpness do pro chef`s need ? I think it is most important to stay healthy and don `t cut in your fingers, right ? So we have to sharpen a kitchen knife to the point that it cut vedgetable skin`s properly, and don`t glide in your fingers.....
This is possible with different steels and sharpening methods.
I use up to 4 different approach knife sets at work, Gyuto, Petty, Slicer.....
Main Set, all carbon`s like (1.3505, 1.2008, 1.2442) all at lower hardness, works for about 3-4 weeks without stones just DICK Micro Steel.
Sharpened up to 8k Shapton Pro. After this they need (Gyuto as main knife requires the most work) a proper grind on stones.
Stainless set (tuned old Zwilling/DICK/Global knifes). Sharpened with Shapton Pro 2k and daily DICK Micro steeling. This works for months....
"Modern" steel set (PM Steels like HAP 40/Р12М3К5Ф2-мп (You can also use M390, K390, Vanadis 23). Sharpened to the maximum (30k Shapton + Natural stone) This works fine for about 2 weeks, steeling not god/possible. After this depending on used abbrasives can take very much time to resharpen. (It is easy and fast if you use soft bond diamond abrassives) .
My Sweetspot 1.2562 sharpened to the max. as above (with other matching natural stone)... Works for a week. This is the most effective method for me, every week 5min. touchup on stones, that`s it.
I often tryed Shirogami knifes in pro environment and i don`t have the time for 3 touchups daily... This is not effective.
it might be the purest but does it get finer grained than low alloyed (cr/v/w/b/nb etc) similar steels? kinda doubt that.
i can get blue sharpen than white. and its easier too. and not only that it stays that ultrasharp just a little longer too.
White rusts in my kitchen just from existing in my kitchen. i wonder how that affects sharpness... and i dont live in a jungle climate either.
there are 2 types of wear. adhesive and abrasive. if you cut fat plastics for instance then its not abrasive wear anymore.
Imo, as long as it doesn’t cut acidic food, the sharpness can be sustained for quite a long time.
Ever since I thinned and perfected my Maboroshi, it hasn’t needed sharpening yet but I still get that fresh off the stones sharpness. All I’ve done is just strop it on diamond compound after every meal prep I do. And this knife has gone through the gamut of foods like crispy pork skin, fresh crusty bread and steaks, hard foods.
Never touched tomatoes or citrus though, I tried it and I feel after some tomatoes it does lose its bite quite a bit. It will still cut most things, but it’s not that crisp anymore.
1000 grit might be "enough" but i kinda doubt pros will be happy with that. i mean why buy a knife that can take an 8k edge and put a 1k edge on there? its like buying a ferrari f40 and put 50 dollar tires on it. if my goal was to only use a 1k edge i would probably get something in s110v and sharpen it every leap year. done!
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