Anyone using Shirogami #2 in a pro kitchen?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by SaladApe, Sep 19, 2019.

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  1. Sep 21, 2019 #61

    Gregmega

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    Most pros I know don’t go above 3k. There’s no point other than a hone. Anything above 3k is almost counterproductive and a waste of time. Unless of course your doing some seriously technical work like soft protein (sushi- and even most those guys don’t). At/above 8k you’re going backwards for a pro that does any kind of volume. All tooth is gone. And that tooth is why white is so good for pro kitchens imo.

    Perfect example- Marko 52100. At 3k it will chew threw your cutting board. At 8k it’s just not angry or toothy, it’s a tamed beast. But again I don’t know the science or really care, just real world observation here.
     
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  2. Sep 21, 2019 #62

    Kippington

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    You're totally off with this one. There are a lot of pro users on this forum, Gregmega, Panda and myself to name a few. High polish is a waste of time for us, Greg laid it out really well in the last post.

    HHT5 and all that uber sharp stuff is overkill. You think it's like a Ferrari with $50 dollar tires, we think it's like racing slicks on a pickup truck. Sure your [pickup truck]/[kitchen knife] will work better [around a dry race-track]/[shaving someone's head]... but why? :confused:
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  3. Sep 21, 2019 #63

    MarkC

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    Would really love a thread on this very topic. Not on the sharpening forum but here where it is dicussed by pros with the knives and stones they use.
     
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  4. Sep 21, 2019 #64

    Kippington

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    I think we all try higher grit edges, then get sick of the maintenance involved. Anything with board contact (which is most of what we do) and acids in the case of carbon knives will kill a polished edge in a really short time... I'm talking before you finish one cutting job, say dicing a 50 lb box of tomatoes.

    Eventually we get sick of these disruptions to the flow and stick with lower grits, which lengthens the useful lifetime of the edge. I believe it has a lot to do with the increased surface area of the edge (more microscopic peaks and valleys), plus the idea that we're using a sawing motion (pull/push) much more often than a chopping motion.

    You'd also look like a bit of a prick if you pulled out a sharpening stone to refresh your tools while everyone around you is busy preparing for a busy restaurant service. Abrasive rods are a better tolerated in this situation.

    None of this really applies to a home user. The sheer amount of food prep and the sense of urgency just doesn't translate over to the home kitchen.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  5. Sep 21, 2019 #65

    inferno

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    i agree. i take almost nothing above 3k. Only some blues go to 12k just for fun of course. and also some stainless i take to 12k just for fun to see if it will work (and it does usually). 3k seems to be the magic point for me. its very sharp and the stones seems to work well around this grit. i do however like my 4k glass and 4k kitayama, but i can only use those on some steels. otherwise its just a waste of time.
     
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  6. Sep 21, 2019 #66

    MarkC

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    Thanks. I have a couple of follow ups. What grit do you typically start with? When using the 3K are you just polishing / cleaning up edges? Do you ever use a micro bevel using the 3K stones?
     
  7. Sep 21, 2019 #67

    suntravel

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    Jep thats a good point, the lower the egde retention is the better it is to stick to low grit and a toothy edge...

    ... but to make often TU with 3K removes lots of steel , so you have to thin out in short time. Thats why using a fine honing steel works well, keeps the toothy edge without removing lots of steel.

    On the other side modern high end steels will really hold a fine edge a very long time and will easy cut tomatoes after 60kg or more and will after that only need a TU on fine stones with very little steel to be removed.

    Regards

    Uwe
     
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  8. Sep 21, 2019 #68

    Gregmega

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    So with that being said- the micro bevel on a well positioned geometry will crush all day long and come back with a couple swipes (for me an aizu I keep in my backpack) and Bob’s your uncle. White isn’t chippy if you know what you’re doing on the stones. And I’m no supreme being on the stones, but the guys having trouble with chippy whites clearly need to succumb to the gods of the microbevel. And cry they will no more.
     
  9. Sep 21, 2019 #69

    inferno

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    well first i flatten the bevel on all new knives. I usually do this on a 220 shapton.
    then the 500 just because i have it. then 1k. then 3 or 4k. this is for the blade side. this can take everything from 5 minutes to 2 hours. depending on how concave the factory grind is.

    at this point i have a "zero edge" and then i usually do a microbevel with a 2k then the finishing stone whatever now it might be.

    but if i take them to 12k then i do maybe a 4-6k before the 12k. it goes faster then. but i found you can go from a 1k to a 12k without problem. it just takes a few minutes longer.

    for a 3k finish you can start with a 500 or a 1k. but you will probably only need to do this very seldom though.

    i put a microbevel on all knives i have. no zero grinds.

    edit: also when stopping at a 3k i try to do the 3k edge full out. i'm not trying to deburr or strop the 1k edge with a few strokes.
     
  10. Sep 21, 2019 #70

    ian

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    Any of you pros actually use a chromium oxide loaded strop at work instead of a steel? E.g., I have a Catcheside nakiri now that I put a 3k edge on and the strop brings it back to life every time. Seems to work better on that one than my White #2 knives, though, for some reason...
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  11. Sep 21, 2019 #71

    HRC_64

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    IMHO anyone using iron cladding in a pro environment needs their head checked :D
     
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  12. Sep 21, 2019 #72

    Gregmega

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    I’m guessing you’re not a pro.
     
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  13. Sep 21, 2019 #73

    inferno

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    greg regarding chippyness. i dont think any knife i have bougth was outright chippy, but some steels/HT's are chippier than others. I think the least chippy one i have tried is the mac aus8. tough as nails. and takes a good edge too and feels good on the stones too.
     
  14. Sep 21, 2019 #74

    sumofruit

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    :eek: Hilarious!

    What grit edge do the pros here (and everyone else) generally use at home, for standard meat and veggie prep?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  15. Sep 21, 2019 #75

    Gregmega

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    Yeah I’ve had the same feeling, only one knife I’ve ever owned made me say ‘damn this is chippy’. But otherwise a little preventative maintenance has saved me a lot of hardship. And ask anyone- especially Jon at JKI- I’m pretty hard on my tools. But I’ve never gotten a feeling that whites in general are more brittle than any others as a whole.
     
  16. Sep 21, 2019 #76

    Gregmega

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    Same as I would in the pro setting, unless I’ve nerded out on a knife (which I almost never have time to do). Most pros are pretty utilitarian in this paradigm, but for the odd Kasumi Kev.
     
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  17. Sep 21, 2019 #77

    inferno

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    i once dinged my almost zero edged 12k sharpened skd/d2 yoshikane right into the kitchen faucet. and this is supposedly the chippiest of them all pretty much. it bent. no chips.

    i have however microchipped (100:eds of them) an r2 knife by just cutting cardboard. go figure.
     
  18. Sep 21, 2019 #78

    suntravel

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    try this with a thin Shiro and cut tamatoes after 2 weeks without touching a stone ;)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is the kitchen of the Pro Chef testing knives, no convinence stuff, all fresh cuted by him self, must go trough hard cheese, chocolate, an he is cutting very fast with good impact but clean straight... ;)

    Shiro chips in his kitchen, good tool steel with good HT not, also a Zwilling Kramer ( 51200 steel) thinned out will work for him without problems or chipping...

    Regards

    Uwe
     
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  19. Sep 21, 2019 #79

    inferno

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    is that some vanadis blade? hss? i see crucible now makes a copy of vanadis 4. 4v or v4 or whatever. have you tried it?

    I remember seeing a haslinger in vanadis4 about 10-15 years ago, supposedly it was the sh1t. but it was unobtanium then.
     
  20. Sep 21, 2019 #80

    M1k3

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    I find between 1k and 3-4k best suited for our kitchen. Enough bite for tomato, zucchini and egg plant skins. Refined enough to not be a complete saw.

    I use a balsa strop with diamond paste. Fits perfectly in one of my backpack pockets.

    See my response to Inferno above.
     
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  21. Sep 21, 2019 #81

    suntravel

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    Yes this one is V23, K390 works as well, but any other good tool steel or AEB-L ect. will do the job without chipping with similar grind, but not as long maybe :)

    Time is not standing still, and Shiro (UHB20 as clean) ist very old, like to compete with an 1950 F1 car today :D

    Regards

    Uwe
     
  22. Sep 21, 2019 #82

    SilverSwarfer

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    I’ve been working with iron-clad in restaurant production environments since 1999. In the past 20yrs I’ve continued to buy more iron clad knives for the same usage. The secret behind successful use is no big secret: maintain your tools properly.

    I also don’t like patina. May seem counterintuitive to most to use reactive knives. My “problem” is that I simply enjoy polishing and sharpening. I actually like maintaining my tools (a little) more than I like actually using the tools. For me, I’m closer to the soul of the blade when/if I’m bringing it back to a perfect (enough) state after some heavy use.

    SS cladding is great for practical reasons. For me the drawback is on the stones. Thinning SS clad knives is an awful chore. I’ve not found a knife/stone combination that felt “right” when it comes to thinning SS clad. Iron clad knives are completely different in this regard.
     
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  23. Sep 21, 2019 #83

    SilverSwarfer

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    I carry 2 strops in my kit:
    8 micron cBN on ‘roo
    1.5 micron cBN (nano cloth on glass)

    I do stop n strop during service!
     
  24. Sep 21, 2019 #84

    Sharpchef

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    The blade i used for the pictures is a suntravel Vanadis 23, sharpened to HHT 5 with Shapton Pro up to 30k and a good Nakayama Kiita after this treatment!... No Strop with compound etc... this is not good for blades, and edge retention.

    Everybody who tryd an edge like this never ever come back to shirogami..... This Blade was still sharper after one week prep then any shirogami after 5 minutes in my hand.....

    I think a knife like this needs to be thinned every 2 years (in busy pro business!) .... Remember i can cut two weeks and after this, make a touchup with 8/12/30k Shapton and a natural.
    That`s it... 10minutes to go. With shirogami i had spend at least one or even two or three hours on stones..... And as you talked about sharpness... We finish with HHT-5--- sharper then most Razor blades.... And still cutting strong through "problem" foods like tomatoe, pepper, onion skin....
    I even cut tetrapacks, vaccum plastics... etc... everytime with mostly one knife!

    Greets Sebastian.
     
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  25. Sep 21, 2019 #85

    Barmoley

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    Cpm4v is basically the same or very similar to vanadis 4 extra, slightly different from vanadis 4. Any steel in this class though is tougher and more wear resistant than white steels.
     
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  26. Sep 21, 2019 #86

    ian

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    Can you explain why? I do often worry about overpolishing the edge, but I figure the teeth are big enough to survive under stropping, and that stropping will mostly just clean up some debris and refine the apex slightly.
     
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  27. Sep 21, 2019 #87

    suntravel

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    Stropping with fine compound will kill the bite and rounds of the edge, get rid of the burr right of the stone is imho the best way, learned that after +30 years stropping :D

    Regards

    Uwe
     
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  28. Sep 21, 2019 #88

    Sharpchef

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    Even with razors, and i am well known in BRB as well, stropping is counter productive. It really kill the edge. You may try this by yourself...

    Test simple steels like shirogami, after a stone, or with compound strop after stone.... this is a step backward for sure.
    You may realize this after a few minutes of use.

    Greets Sebastian.
     
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  29. Sep 21, 2019 #89

    labor of love

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    I strop on the stone that’s sitting right in front of me. About the only special tool I use when sharpening is a felt deburring block which I think is a step up from a cork screw. Even that feels a little bourgeoisie.
     
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  30. Sep 21, 2019 #90

    inferno

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    yeah i can imagine this blade is quite awesome. next gen sh1t for sure. i'll see if i can get hold of some uddeholm caldie at work from some used machine some time. its the toughest of the tough. yeah not quite the same but that alloys is designed to chop other metals lol.
     

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