Apex ultra vs Japanese steels

[Guerrero_Jon]

I'm no knife maker. I don't know the composition of steels enough but I am taking tons of info in and I'm willing to take the time to learn.

With that said, what can you tell me about apex ultra when compared to Japanese steels like ginsan or Hitachi steels with blue in particular? I have read enough and have asked around enough to know that blue takes a better edge than white. Although to the amateur eye I can very well understand that you probably won't know the difference. I am after edge retention more than ease of sharpening. Just throwing in that I don't care if a steel isn't stainless as I feel more than capable of taking care of it.

The reason I'm asking is because I have my mind set on a nakiri. I'm getting a blue 2 tetsujin soon, but I'd like to order a custom made nakiri but it'll take like 2 months to complete. I'm in no hurry to receive it. But if apex ultra compares in any way whatsoever to the edge retention of Hitachi blue steels than I'm all in for it.

I also read that it compares to 52100 and it's a steel I'd like to stay away from. I have had a hunting knife in 52100 that cost me a lot of money and we couldn't break down a small deer without sharpening it quite a few times. And this was done by someone with decades of butchering all kinds of animals.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[jedy617]

apex will have better edge retention and toughness, much better than blue 2

 

[TheDza]

Can't speak to the difference between AU and hitachi steels (haven't not had the pleasure of owning an AU knife....yet), but I absolutely adore 52100. In the hands of a good blacksmith it is a really good steel. My 52100 eddworks gyuto is fantastic and I use it all the time. Ultimately it all goes back to the saying around here, "buy the knife, not the steel". A bad blacksmith can mess up even AU with bad heat treatment

 

[jedy617]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10...ness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/

Check here for all your steel needs

 

[enrico]

For those who dont know “knife steel chart” is a great app for simple searches.

 

[Taurahe]

if people spent as much time doing some quick before and after stropping, as they do worrying about different steels, steel wouldnt matter and edge retention would be irrelevant. If you are not banging 50lbs of onions on the daily, why does it matter? it takes thrity seconds total to maintain an edge. you already said it...you wont see a difference. Now, that said,.....

Apex will give you , on paper, better overall performance ..... edge retention , toughness etc. it is a very durable and high performance steel. On paper , blue is more prone to chipping, reduced edge retention etc. if it really means that much to you by all means , go for the apex ultra..... but in reality, you are not likely to notice a difference in home use, and I would not pay a premium for steel that wont actually benefit you in a meaningful way . You will not be disappointed though, either way.

 

[jedy617]

if people spent as much time doing some quick before and after stropping, as they do worrying about different steels, steel wouldnt matter and edge retention would be irrelevant. If you are not banging 50lbs of onions on the daily, why does it matter? it takes thrity seconds total to maintain an edge. you already said it...you wont see a difference. Now, that said,.....

Apex will give you , on paper, better overall performance ..... edge retention , toughness etc. it is a very durable and high performance steel. On paper , blue is more prone to chipping, reduced edge retention etc. if it really means that much to you by all means , go for the apex ultra..... but in reality, you are not likely to notice a difference in home use, and I would not pay a premium for steel that wont actually benefit you in a meaningful way . You will not be disappointed though, either way.

I would say my apex ultra knifes last at least double in terms of time needed before sharpening, I think it's quite significant.

Also OP: " have read enough and have asked around enough to know that blue takes a better edge than white. " I don't know what you are reading but that is not even remotely true. In theory, white will take a better edge since it has a finer microstructure. In use though, with all of these steels in a cutlery setting, no one will "take a better edge" than any other. Can get them all just as sharp. White is just about one of the easiest and nicest to sharpen though. Blue doesn't feel a heck of a lot different unless its blue super

 

[Nemo]

I have no experience with Apex Ultra.

Definitely don't dismiss 52100. It is an interesting steel. When heat treated poorly, it has a reputation for gumminess when sharpening and ordinary edge retention. I haven't personally had this experience but I suspect you have.

When heat treated well, it can be easy to sharpen and have excellent edge stability. Don't confuse edge stability with edge retention. Edge stability is the ability of a blade to hold an acute angle without rolling. It relies on the steel matrix being hard enough to support the fine edge without rolling over. High carbide steels (especially if the carbides are large) often can't support a fine edge (why this occurs is a whole nother discussion and can get quite contentious), so there is a sweet spot for edge stability that 52100 falls into. Assuming it is properly heat treated.

 

[MGAubrey]

if people spent as much time doing some quick before and after stropping, as they do worrying about different steels, steel wouldnt matter and edge retention would be irrelevant. If you are not banging 50lbs of onions on the daily, why does it matter? it takes thrity seconds total to maintain an edge. you already said it...you wont see a difference. Now, that said,.....

Apex will give you , on paper, better overall performance ..... edge retention , toughness etc. it is a very durable and high performance steel. On paper , blue is more prone to chipping, reduced edge retention etc. if it really means that much to you by all means , go for the apex ultra..... but in reality, you are not likely to notice a difference in home use, and I would not pay a premium for steel that wont actually benefit you in a meaningful way . You will not be disappointed though, either way.

I think, also, it's a question of the fit and finish, too, right? I mean, I can definitely get a solid blue #2 knife with great heat treatment and edge retention, and so forth, but not really great fit and finish for less than $200. I can also get a really beautiful blue #2 knife with superb f&f for $500 or more that is the same great steel, but also a perfect grind and incredible feeling in hand.

I've never had an Apex Ultra knife, but all the ones that I've looked, tend to look more like that second type of blue #2 knife than the first. That is to say, there are plenty of knife makers making just fine blue #2 knives and plenty who are making really lovely use to blue #2 knives, but only the second category seems to exist for Apex Ultra. So if you then pay $500 or $600 for an Apex Ultra knife, you're not just paying that premium for the steel. You're getting a whole package.

My two cents anyway—that's all I've got. I'm still saving the larger bits of change for a real quality fit & finish gyuto.

 

[Arcticyam]

I would say my apex ultra knifes last at least double in terms of time needed before sharpening, I think it's quite significant.

Also OP: " have read enough and have asked around enough to know that blue takes a better edge than white. " I don't know what you are reading but that is not even remotely true. In theory, white will take a better edge since it has a finer microstructure. In use though, with all of these steels in a cutlery setting, no one will "take a better edge" than any other. Can get them all just as sharp. White is just about one of the easiest and nicest to sharpen though. Blue doesn't feel a heck of a lot different unless its blue super

Is your experience in a professional kitchen environment?

It would be good to hear of anyone else who has transitioned from a typical J-knife to an Apex Ultra knife in a pro kitchen.

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2 etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

 

[Dwergi]

Is your experience in a professional kitchen environment?

It would be good to hear of anyone else who has transitioned from a typical J-knife to an Apex Ultra knife in a pro kitchen.

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2 etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

I mean, I think it's still pretty early for that, but I imagine that the smiths actually putting down money to use AU are probably more than capable of following the HT protocol pretty accurately.

But if you really wanted to be certain, then Tobias Hangler developed the steel, and my understanding is that Martin Huber has been using it extensively since the beginning.

 

[gentiscid]

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2, etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

You are talking about some 80+ years old smiths with 40-50 or even more years of experience vs. some younger modern smiths with 4-5 years of career. AU is a modern steel too. Japanese smiths make the same thing over and over, they are very consistent in what they make. They make the same knife over and over for years (Toyama, Kato, Tanaka, Shiraki, Togashi, Hinoura, Heiji, T. Fujiwara etc) and many more unknown Tosa smiths and other regions, While Western smiths are more flexible in what they make, much more inconsistent (that's why u have to be lucky or try several blades from westerns to find a more adapt blade for u.

So in my opinion u are comparing apples to oranges. Two different leagues. But most Western their forging principle is based on Japanese techniques and style.

But to answer your question, there are a lot of Western smiths who can make knives in AU. U can look up by title “Apex Ultra” in the search bar and it will show up. It's a lot of them.

 

[Arcticyam]

Great points. I didn't realise it was such a new steel.

With such a small sample size and relatively short history it will then be difficult, if not impossible, to determine whether one maker's knife is superior to another's based on the steel rather than profile/grind etc.

 

[gentiscid]

But I’ll tell u this. The father of the guy (one of the three people) who invented Apex Ultra is a smith. Devin Thomas is his name. And he is/was pretty active here too. His son, Larrin has a couple of books on the steel encyclopedia, I think.

 

[AdamE]

For those who dont know “knife steel chart” is a great app for simple searches.

Great tip. Thanks.

 

[esoo]

My favorite J-knife is in Blue 2 - Kono MM. It keeps it's edge long enough in my home kitchen, is easy to sharpen and gets wicked sharp.

I love Apex Ultra as it works very nicely as a monosteel blade. I have handled a few knives from Spåre and @eddworks. In doing touch ups, I've found the eddworks nakiri a bit easier to work with than the Spåre gyutos in that I've been able to get a nastier edge (although that has only been one time as my use doesn't kill knives very much). I would say the AU is a bit tougher to sharpen for me, possibly because it tends to be heat treated harder (at 64HRC vs 61 for my Kono MM)

 

[jedy617]

Is your experience in a professional kitchen environment?

It would be good to hear of anyone else who has transitioned from a typical J-knife to an Apex Ultra knife in a pro kitchen.

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2 etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

No, but I did a passaround of one of my apex ultra knives to users in professional kitchens and they said similar things.... regardless it probably would last twice as long there, even if the initial times between sharpening are much shorter.

Lots of good apex makers. Isasmedjan, bidinger, msicard, hsc, xinguo, Milan, kirschbaum, kamon, eddworks...too many off the top of my head. Lots of blacksmiths use it these days. I would say buy the blacksmith. If he is popular enough with good reviews, there probably won't be any "magic" apex ultra speciality smith. I do think the whole Japanese specialist thing when it comes to being masters of certain steels is a bit overblown. Most of the more premium stuff these days are done quite well imo.

 

[AdamE]

Is your experience in a professional kitchen environment?

It would be good to hear of anyone else who has transitioned from a typical J-knife to an Apex Ultra knife in a pro kitchen.

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2 etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

I don’t think anyone is going to do a better heat treat than Tobias Hangler. Both he and Kamon are using a fluidized sand bed for heat treatment followed by a cryo treatment.

Here’s an interesting video.

 

[kdizzog6]

All steels have pros and cons. I have 3 categories in knife steel that I consider. Sharpen ability, edge retention, and toughness.

Hitachi whites are usually really easy to sharpen, but lack edge retention and toughness.

Blues are a little tougher and hold an edge longer.

From my experience, apex ultra is comparable to 52100 more so than hitachi steels. It can remain more tough at high hardness where as 52100 will get more brittle the harder you take it.

Call me old school because if I had to choose, I would pick 52100 over apex ultra. I feel it’s easier to sharpen, holds an edge well enough for any task I’ve thrown at it, and tough enough where I don’t have to baby it, even with a thin edge. But then again, I don’t butcher deer. Most people who do use cheaper stainless boning / butcher knives, not a chefs knife.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm no knife maker. I don't know the composition of steels enough but I am taking tons of info in and I'm willing to take the time to learn.

With that said, what can you tell me about apex ultra when compared to Japanese steels like ginsan or Hitachi steels with blue in particular? I have read enough and have asked around enough to know that blue takes a better edge than white. Although to the amateur eye I can very well understand that you probably won't know the difference. I am after edge retention more than ease of sharpening. Just throwing in that I don't care if a steel isn't stainless as I feel more than capable of taking care of it.

The reason I'm asking is because I have my mind set on a nakiri. I'm getting a blue 2 tetsujin soon, but I'd like to order a custom made nakiri but it'll take like 2 months to complete. I'm in no hurry to receive it. But if apex ultra compares in any way whatsoever to the edge retention of Hitachi blue steels than I'm all in for it.

I also read that it compares to 52100 and it's a steel I'd like to stay away from. I have had a hunting knife in 52100 that cost me a lot of money and we couldn't break down a small deer without sharpening it quite a few times. And this was done by someone with decades of butchering all kinds of animals.

Thanks in advance for your help!

You got bad 52100. In the right hands it is a decent steel.

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

You got bad 52100. In the right hands it is a decent steel.

This seems to be the case for sure!

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

All steels have pros and cons. I have 3 categories in knife steel that I consider. Sharpen ability, edge retention, and toughness.

Hitachi whites are usually really easy to sharpen, but lack edge retention and toughness.

Blues are a little tougher and hold an edge longer.

From my experience, apex ultra is comparable to 52100 more so than hitachi steels. It can remain more tough at high hardness where as 52100 will get more brittle the harder you take it.

Call me old school because if I had to choose, I would pick 52100 over apex ultra. I feel it’s easier to sharpen, holds an edge well enough for any task I’ve thrown at it, and tough enough where I don’t have to baby it, even with a thin edge. But then again, I don’t butcher deer. Most people who do use cheaper stainless boning / butcher knives, not a chefs knife.

Thanks for the information. The knife used on that deer is from a highly known knife maker. They do produce tons of knives at time so maybe the quality of it or the heat treat wasn't as good. I posted this question so I can learn and I am. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

I would say my apex ultra knifes last at least double in terms of time needed before sharpening, I think it's quite significant.

Also OP: " have read enough and have asked around enough to know that blue takes a better edge than white. " I don't know what you are reading but that is not even remotely true. In theory, white will take a better edge since it has a finer microstructure. In use though, with all of these steels in a cutlery setting, no one will "take a better edge" than any other. Can get them all just as sharp. White is just about one of the easiest and nicest to sharpen though. Blue doesn't feel a heck of a lot different unless its blue super

I did mean to say that white may take a better edge than blue my apologies I wrote it wrong.

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

I have no experience with Apex Ultra.

Definitely don't dismiss 52100. It is an interesting steel. When heat treated poorly, it has a reputation for gumminess when sharpening and ordinary edge retention. I haven't personally had this experience but I suspect you have.

When heat treated well, it can be easy to sharpen and have excellent edge stability. Don't confuse edge stability with edge retention. Edge stability is the ability of a blade to hold an acute angle without rolling. It relies on the steel matrix being hard enough to support the fine edge without rolling over. High carbide steels (especially if the carbides are large) often can't support a fine edge (why this occurs is a whole nother discussion and can get quite contentious), so there is a sweet spot for edge stability that 52100 falls into. Assuming it is properly heat treated.

Great information thank you. This is the type of information I was hoping to receive. Appreciate your input!

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

I think, also, it's a question of the fit and finish, too, right? I mean, I can definitely get a solid blue #2 knife with great heat treatment and edge retention, and so forth, but not really great fit and finish for less than $200. I can also get a really beautiful blue #2 knife with superb f&f for $500 or more that is the same great steel, but also a perfect grind and incredible feeling in hand.

I've never had an Apex Ultra knife, but all the ones that I've looked, tend to look more like that second type of blue #2 knife than the first. That is to say, there are plenty of knife makers making just fine blue #2 knives and plenty who are making really lovely use to blue #2 knives, but only the second category seems to exist for Apex Ultra. So if you then pay $500 or $600 for an Apex Ultra knife, you're not just paying that premium for the steel. You're getting a whole package.

My two cents anyway—that's all I've got. I'm still saving the larger bits of change for a real quality fit & finish gyuto.

The knife I'm thinking of getting in AU is much less than $500. I can't find the damn post of the user on reddit who recommended this blacksmith to someone else and that's how I got his info which I'll share here.

https://trilobitecustoms.bigcartel.com/category/knives

 

[M1k3]

ApexUltra is a great steel in a professional environment. 52100 also. Hell, plain old White steel is good too.

 

[AdamE]

Here is a pretty cool video on the fluidized sand bed for heat treating blades.

 

[jakuda]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2022/09/06/how-to-heat-treat-apexultra-knife-steel/ is a good, nerdy article by Thomas.

At all RC hardness Levels, apexultra will have significantly higher edge retention from the chromium, tungsten, vanadium than 52100, blue, and white steels.
Apex ultra has higher toughness than blue/white, such that it can be a mono-steel... however I still wouldn't be cutting bones with it. For practical purposes, about the same as 52100 here.

 

[EShin]

if people spent as much time doing some quick before and after stropping, as they do worrying about different steels, steel wouldnt matter and edge retention would be irrelevant. If you are not banging 50lbs of onions on the daily, why does it matter? it takes thrity seconds total to maintain an edge. you already said it...you wont see a difference. Now, that said,.....

Apex will give you , on paper, better overall performance ..... edge retention , toughness etc. it is a very durable and high performance steel. On paper , blue is more prone to chipping, reduced edge retention etc. if it really means that much to you by all means , go for the apex ultra..... but in reality, you are not likely to notice a difference in home use, and I would not pay a premium for steel that wont actually benefit you in a meaningful way . You will not be disappointed though, either way.

Knives are tools and tools need maintenance. How people use and maintain the tool is the much bigger question, I completely agree. Apex Ultra may have better edge retention and toughness but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be easier for you to maintain it as it is usually a bit more demanding on stones and technique than blue 2, which is more than good enough for many people, but it really depends. But if you have the knives occassionally sharpened by a professional, everything else (geometry etc.) being equal, Apex Ultra is the better choice.

 

[Barmoley]

Knives are tools and tools need maintenance. How people use and maintain the tool is the much bigger question, I completely agree. Apex Ultra may have better edge retention and toughness but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be easier for you to maintain it as it is usually a bit more demanding on stones and technique than blue 2, which is more than good enough for many people, but it really depends. But if you have the knives occassionally sharpened by a professional, everything else (geometry etc.) being equal, Apex Ultra is the better choice.

I haven't found ApexUltra more difficult to sharpen than blue super or 52100 for example. It is more difficult to abrade than blue 2, so thinning and then finishing to higher polish levels is definitely more difficult, but regular sharpening should be only marginally different from blue 2. Then again some people complain about differences in sharpening white 2 from different makers, so depends on how sensitive one is.