Apex ultra vs Japanese steels

[SwampDonkey]

Concur with above. My two ApexUltra knives at 64 HRC are relatively easy to sharpen. Chosera 800 and faster coticules work fine for the edge and it was any easy deburr experience, wasn't chasing any burrs. Edge retention has been nice. Used one every day for amonth as my only knife as a home cook and the edge has plenty of life/bite left after that particular experiment ended.

Next experiment is to sharpen on diamonds and see if that extends edge/tooth life even further.

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

Concur with above. My two ApexUltra knives at 64 HRC are relatively easy to sharpen. Chosera 800 and faster coticules work fine for the edge and it was any easy deburr experience, wasn't chasing any burrs. Edge retention has been nice. Used one every day for amonth as my only knife as a home cook and the edge has plenty of life/bite left after that particular experiment ended.

Next experiment is to sharpen on diamonds and see if that extends edge/tooth life even further.

Perfect. Thanks very much to everyone for the info!

 

[enrico]

Is your experience in a professional kitchen environment?

It would be good to hear of anyone else who has transitioned from a typical J-knife to an Apex Ultra knife in a pro kitchen.

I've read plenty on here about certain blacksmiths and their heat treatment Tanaka, Blue 1; Watanabe, Blue 2 etc. Are there any blacksmiths renowned for their Apex Ultra heat treatment?

its less about the steel and the knife itself as a whole

 

[timebard]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2022/09/06/how-to-heat-treat-apexultra-knife-steel/ is a good, nerdy article by Thomas.

At all RC hardness Levels, apexultra will have significantly higher edge retention from the chromium, tungsten, vanadium than 52100, blue, and white steels.
Apex ultra has higher toughness than blue/white, such that it can be a mono-steel... however I still wouldn't be cutting bones with it. For practical purposes, about the same as 52100 here.

I haven't found ApexUltra more difficult to sharpen than blue super or 52100 for example. It is more difficult to abrade than blue 2, so thinning and then finishing to higher polish levels is definitely more difficult, but regular sharpening should be only marginally different from blue 2. Then again some people complain about differences in sharpening white 2 from different makers, so depends on how sensitive one is.

Concur with above. My two ApexUltra knives at 64 HRC are relatively easy to sharpen. Chosera 800 and faster coticules work fine for the edge and it was any easy deburr experience, wasn't chasing any burrs. Edge retention has been nice. Used one every day for amonth as my only knife as a home cook and the edge has plenty of life/bite left after that particular experiment ended.

Next experiment is to sharpen on diamonds and see if that extends edge/tooth life even further.

Concur with all the above. Retention is noticably better than 52100 or blue 2/similar, especially in terms of the drop-off in bite on tomatoes, pepper skins, etc., and ease of sharpening is pretty comparable. Edge stability at 64rc feels quite good even with pretty extreme geometry. My sample size is small but I suspect it may be easier to sharpen than similar hardness 1.2562 or blue super (but that might be down to edge geometry, choice of stone, etc).

 

[gentiscid]

Milan’s prospective on Au. Not vs. Japanese steels but worth mentioning.

 

[Barmoley]

Milan’s prospective on Au. Not vs. Japanese steels but worth mentioning.

View attachment 379252

Makes sense. Very different goals and philosophies for makers vs end users. You just need to decide which one you are.

 

[AdamE]

Here’s a recent post from @KAMON Knives that perfectly demonstrates the progress he goes through to properly heat treat and cryo a blade. Pretty interesting.

 

[milangravier]

Milan’s prospective on Au. Not vs. Japanese steels but worth mentioning.

View attachment 379252

Just to develop a bit, because that's very short :
@Barmoley is right, first it's quite different work/philosophy to work on either of them as a maker. It might not interest at all the final users but it's interesting to see makers choices.
Personnally, if I wanted to play nice and easy, I would just not work Apex Ultra at all. 135Cr3 is much easier to weld to anything, much easier and faster to forge (+30% of time I would say), I can quench in water which I prefer (no oil steam, no dirty stuff), grind will be easier as it is not as wear resistant, and finally on stones it will be a faster job (again, maybe 20/30% faster), and on final stones 135Cr3 will look much better than Apex because it just accept to get polished where Apex resist to be grinded and you'll get shallow scratches that just take forever to be erased.
Why I still play with Apex ? because I want to challenge me and all those difficulties ask me to think twice, premedit my work, get better at preparing things so in the end I don't have huge mistakes to resolve, like overgrind with the belt which is bad but solvable on stones with 135CR3, but terrible terrible with Apex ultra.
Now for the user : I would be biaised to say 135Cr3 is as good as Apex Ultra technically. But still, as much as Apex is very wear resistant, it will loose it's perfect apex about as fast as 135Cr3, then Apex will keep that sharp shape longer than 135Cr3, but for those who want just dead sharp things, not sure one will give you better result as the other one, as 135Cr3 can be bring to scrary sharp faster and easier than Apex. But for the long run of a pro cook, Apex will give that ability to stay quite sharp for longer than 135Cr3 for sure (but 135Cr3 won't just get dull like that, it's a 65/66HRC steel anyway). But then you need to sharpen, and here you're a maker like me : if there is mistakes on the blade, if the blade is too thick, it's gonna be a long job where 135Cr3 will be much faster to handle even if the blade got some little mistakes (bend, warp, not even grind, etc).
So for a user, actually I would advise 135Cr3 too. Because it's enough, you will have a great edge that stay sharp for long enough and then you will be able to maintain it easily. So why I still make Apex ultra blades ? Well again, same answer as before, I like the challenge, and I also like to propose variety in my work and I think it is interesting to that people can get 135Cr3 or Apex with my knives, so they can have different experiences in the end.

About the discussion here, unfortunately I don't have experience with Aoagmi super, but I would say they should be about similar and not sure the final user would note a difference.

 

[Delat]

Here is a pretty cool video on the fluidized sand bed for heat treating blades.

Oh man, anybody else get a little spike of anxiety every time he touches it with his bare hands? Like every single time?

Great video, thanks for sharing.

 

[Delat]

Just to develop a bit, because that's very short :
@Barmoley is right, first it's quite different work/philosophy to work on either of them as a maker. It might not interest at all the final users but it's interesting to see makers choices.
Personnally, if I wanted to play nice and easy, I would just not work Apex Ultra at all. 135Cr3 is much easier to weld to anything, much easier and faster to forge (+30% of time I would say), I can quench in water which I prefer (no oil steam, no dirty stuff), grind will be easier as it is not as wear resistant, and finally on stones it will be a faster job (again, maybe 20/30% faster), and on final stones 135Cr3 will look much better than Apex because it just accept to get polished where Apex resist to be grinded and you'll get shallow scratches that just take forever to be erased.
Why I still play with Apex ? because I want to challenge me and all those difficulties ask me to think twice, premedit my work, get better at preparing things so in the end I don't have huge mistakes to resolve, like overgrind with the belt which is bad but solvable on stones with 135CR3, but terrible terrible with Apex ultra.
Now for the user : I would be biaised to say 135Cr3 is as good as Apex Ultra technically. But still, as much as Apex is very wear resistant, it will loose it's perfect apex about as fast as 135Cr3, then Apex will keep that sharp shape longer than 135Cr3, but for those who want just dead sharp things, not sure one will give you better result as the other one, as 135Cr3 can be bring to scrary sharp faster and easier than Apex. But for the long run of a pro cook, Apex will give that ability to stay quite sharp for longer than 135Cr3 for sure (but 135Cr3 won't just get dull like that, it's a 65/66HRC steel anyway). But then you need to sharpen, and here you're a maker like me : if there is mistakes on the blade, if the blade is too thick, it's gonna be a long job where 135Cr3 will be much faster to handle even if the blade got some little mistakes (bend, warp, not even grind, etc).
So for a user, actually I would advise 135Cr3 too. Because it's enough, you will have a great edge that stay sharp for long enough and then you will be able to maintain it easily. So why I still make Apex ultra blades ? Well again, same answer as before, I like the challenge, and I also like to propose variety in my work and I think it is interesting to that people can get 135Cr3 or Apex with my knives, so they can have different experiences in the end.

About the discussion here, unfortunately I don't have experience with Aoagmi super, but I would say they should be about similar and not sure the final user would note a difference.

Thanks for sharing that perspective. I was so torn between your recent drop of 135cr3 and AU. I wanted the smaller 135cr3, but I also really wanted the bragging rights of AU. I ended up entering for the 135cr3 since I prefer smaller knives.

These little mental exercises are part of what makes the hobby fun, IMHO.

Anyway for OP: I haven’t noticed any edge retention differences between my 52100 knives vs White and Blue. In fact I quite like 52100 and just got 2 more knives with it last year (Eddworks and Sky Eilers) - I tend to consider it a default choice unless there’s another steel I really want. I suspect your 52100 hunter is just a dud.

 

[bill_zeng]

• ApexUltra Steel: When using the same cyclic heating quenching process and tempering at 180°C, the grain structure from quenching at 830°C tends to be coarser compared to quenching at 810°C. Additionally, quenching at 830°C results in noticeably higher hardness. The combination of coarser grains and higher hardness increases the difficulty of grinding. If you are particularly concerned about ease of grinding, you can suggest to the maker to use an 810°C quenching temperature. This way, the grinding difficulty will be significantly reduced. Another advantage of ApexUltra is that Mr. Larrin Thomas provides heat treatment guidelines, which reduces the trial-and-error time for knife makers and makes it easier for them to produce high-quality knives.
• 52100 Steel: This is an excellent steel. However, I suspect there may be an issue with your 52100 knife, possibly due to an error in the heat treatment process or the quality of the steel itself. In my experience, 52100 paired with cyclic heat treatment and quenching delivers outstanding performance.
• Blue Super, Blue #1, and Blue #2 Steels: I believe these steels are not directly comparable to ApexUltra, as they belong to different generations. The manufacturing technology behind them differs significantly. Some Japanese makers prefer to maintain a sense of mystery and uphold traditional craftsmanship culture. As a result, their heat treatment outcomes often exhibit a considerable degree of variability.

 

[kdizzog6]

• ApexUltra Steel: When using the same cyclic heating quenching process and tempering at 180°C, the grain structure from quenching at 830°C tends to be coarser compared to quenching at 810°C. Additionally, quenching at 830°C results in noticeably higher hardness. The combination of coarser grains and higher hardness increases the difficulty of grinding. If you are particularly concerned about ease of grinding, you can suggest to the maker to use an 810°C quenching temperature. This way, the grinding difficulty will be significantly reduced. Another advantage of ApexUltra is that Mr. Larrin Thomas provides heat treatment guidelines, which reduces the trial-and-error time for knife makers and makes it easier for them to produce high-quality knives.
• 52100 Steel: This is an excellent steel. However, I suspect there may be an issue with your 52100 knife, possibly due to an error in the heat treatment process or the quality of the steel itself. In my experience, 52100 paired with cyclic heat treatment and quenching delivers outstanding performance.
• Blue Super, Blue #1, and Blue #2 Steels: I believe these steels are not directly comparable to ApexUltra, as they belong to different generations. The manufacturing technology behind them differs significantly. Some Japanese makers prefer to maintain a sense of mystery and uphold traditional craftsmanship culture. As a result, their heat treatment outcomes often exhibit a considerable degree of variability.

Isnt that why AU shines though? You can treat to a higher HRC while 52100 loses much of its toughness at higher hardness, AU can maintain all the qualities such as toughness and edge retention even at the higher hardness levels. Treating AU softer takes away everything that it excels at. Minds well just keep the 52100

 

[bill_zeng]

Isnt that why AU shines though? You can treat to a higher HRC while 52100 loses much of its toughness at higher hardness, AU can maintain all the qualities such as toughness and edge retention even at the higher hardness levels. Treating AU softer takes away everything that it excels at. Minds well just keep the 52100

With a quenching temperature of 810°C and tempering at 180°C, the hardness of ApexUltra can reach approximately HRC65, which is already a very high level of hardness. I don't find ApexUltra to be a particularly difficult material to grind. However, for me, ApexUltra at HRC65 is easier to achieve the level of sharpness required to effortlessly slice through a hair compared to outputs at HRC66 or 67.

 

[panda]

Heat treat matters hell of a lot more than paper specs. I love white steel but there has been quite a few white2 knives I didn't like the heat treat on..

prime example: i hate 52100 but love shihan's treatment of it.

 

[F-Flash]

Heat treat matters hell of a lot more than paper specs. I love white steel but there has been quite a few white2 knives I didn't like the heat treat on..

prime example: i hate 52100 but love shihan's treatment of it.

Sorry for little off topic:
Since you have tried quite a few white 2 knives, which has your favorite heat treatment?

How would you compare such knives as: Masamoto KS, Mizuno honyaki and yozhikazu Tanakas.

 

[panda]

Sorry for little off topic:
Since you have tried quite a few white 2 knives, which has your favorite heat treatment?

How would you compare such knives as: Masamoto KS, Mizuno honyaki and yozhikazu Tanakas.

til this day sharpening masa ks is the best feeling on stones, touchups literally took me only 3 swipes each side, but retention was pathetic. miz white honyaki is incredible but downside is thinning it is a nightmare. overall my fav heat treat of white2 has been yoshikane. but my top spot for shirogami is TF white1 by a mile. awaiting to try isamitsu white1 I have on order.

have not tried tanaka, was never interested in those.

 

[panda]

I haven't found ApexUltra more difficult to sharpen than blue super or 52100 for example. It is more difficult to abrade than blue 2, so thinning and then finishing to higher polish levels is definitely more difficult, but regular sharpening should be only marginally different from blue 2. Then again some people complain about differences in sharpening white 2 from different makers, so depends on how sensitive one is.

me

 

[Barmoley]

Heat treat matters hell of a lot more than paper specs. I love white steel but there has been quite a few white2 knives I didn't like the heat treat on..

prime example: i hate 52100 but love shihan's treatment of it.

This is exactly what I am saying. You don't hate 52100 as steel, you hate certain knives made out of 52100 and love some others made out of the same steel. Which is why it is not the steel, but the maker that is more important. Which is not the same as saying steel doesn't matter.

 

[MSicardCutlery]

It's beginning to fascinate me that even with how often questions like this get posed, no one ever seems to cite the most pertinent data available on the steel(s) in question....

Apex Ultra + low alloy toughness charts, large and high hardness:

https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c...lloy-steel-toughness-9-4-2022.png?w=749&ssl=1

https://i1.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c...2/09/apexultra-zoom-toughness.png?w=745&ssl=1

Apex Ultra Test Batch CATRA: https://i1.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c...pexUltra-CATRA-edge-retention.jpg?w=753&ssl=1

Apex Ultra Production Batch CATRA: https://i1.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.c.../06/ApexUltra-CATRA-6-26-2022.jpg?w=753&ssl=1

Complete CATRA Chart: https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/magnacut-edge-retention-chart.jpg?resize=670,1536&ssl=1

Isnt that why AU shines though? You can treat to a higher HRC while 52100 loses much of its toughness at higher hardness, AU can maintain all the qualities such as toughness and edge retention even at the higher hardness levels.

AU has lower toughness than 52100 up till about 66.5hrc in Larrin's charts. It's only after that point where it is tougher.

OP: For the purposes of Larrin's data many of the Japanese steels are/were not available for testing. Typically a European steel with similar composition is used as a placeholder in their stead. 26c3 for White #1, 1.2419 for Blue #2 and so on. Typically though, the Europeans allow for greater chrome in the alloys, which may lend itself to better toughness over their similar Japanese counterparts.

A website called "zknives.com" is a veritable encyclopedia of steel compositions. Pretty well everything else you might want to learn you'll find on knife steel nerds.

Unfortunately, most of the variance in low alloy steel knives' edge retention and toughness can be completely wiped away by differences in geometry between knives, as really the differences are not that significant. It's critical to remember that knives are not like the test coupons used in Larrin's testing with tight tolerances for geometry. There is a ton of variability between knives.

I recall Larrin doing some testing on using cryo on low alloy steels. If memory serves the differences were not that significant, but there was a measurable increase in hardness and a corresponding decrease in toughness. How that actually translates to edge life, I don't know, and while I trust that Kamon probably wouldn't waste his time doing cryo just for the sake of saying it's part of his process, (and was probably recommended to include it by Tobias Hangler) I personally haven't seen anything suggesting it's game changing with most low alloy steels. It may well be with 52100 and AU in the higher hardness ranges because the requisite austenitizing temperatures (1550f-1600f) do tend to create a lot more RA than there would be with a steel like 26c3 (1475f).

Apex Ultra gets most of its additional edge retention from the Cr enriching the cementite (just like 52100) and the rest (10%-15%) from the tungsten. The Vanadium is only there for controlling the grain size at higher forging and austenitizing temperatures. Edit: While it does have that function there is actually sufficient Vanadium to form carbide, and the "MC" type carbide volume of Apex Ultra is drawn almost equally from the Vanadium and Tungsten. My mistake, just re-read the article today 01/19/2025.

All that said...by all means read, read, read! It's a fascinating and enriching area of study if knives are an area of interest for you and you can use this information practically, to better refine your interests and cut away much of the BS marketing around knives and steels.

 

[Guerrero_Jon]

All that said...by all means read, read, read! It's a fascinating and enriching area of study if knives are an area of interest for you and you can use this information practically, to better refine your interests and cut away much of the BS marketing around knives and steels.

Truly amazing information thank you for taking the time to share!

I definitely find all of this stuff entertaining and I want to learn more. I want to eventually make knives for myself. I'm not quite ready yet. I don't like to pick up a hobby and not have done extensive research about it. I'm even considering taking class on metallurgy.

Thanks again!

 

[gentiscid]

Thanks for sharing!

I think lots of older members who were steel nerds are no longer active here or care less to repeat same stuff over and over like u said.

I use Larrin’s website and zknives often but sometimes its not easy to find what u looking for. I bookmarked your comment.

 

[HSC /// Knives]

Here’s a recent post from @KAMON Knives that perfectly demonstrates the progress he goes through to properly heat treat and cryo a blade. Pretty interesting.

no one likes a stickler but....cryo is liquid nitrogen, dry ice doesn't reach the same temperature and isn't classified as a cryogen.
however it's purpose here is very suitable and I've certainly have used it myself.

 

[Delat]

Sorry for little off topic:
Since you have tried quite a few white 2 knives, which has your favorite heat treatment?

How would you compare such knives as: Masamoto KS, Mizuno honyaki and yozhikazu Tanakas.

Love Wakui white 2, not impressed by Y Tanaka white 2.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Love Wakui white 2, not impressed by Y Tanaka white 2.

I really enjoyed the sharpening and fresh off stones edge of Wakui V2, but found the tooth dropped off a cliff when it decided to go. Any chance you've tried that vs his white 2? Curious if he treats them differently.

 

[plantgainz]

Love Wakui white 2, not impressed by Y Tanaka white 2.

Same

 

[Delat]

I really enjoyed the sharpening and fresh off stones edge of Wakui V2, but found the tooth dropped off a cliff when it decided to go. Any chance you've tried that vs his white 2? Curious if he treats them differently.

Sorry, I’ve never tried v2. I only grab my wakui white 2 nakiri a couple times a year for light prep. After 2-3 years I think it might still be on the original edge which is what I find crazy. Still sticks into my board on the first cut every time to remind me to go lighter on the pressure, too.

The Y Tanaka white 2 I had needed to be touched up after every use.

 

[sumis]

fwiw, i use both masashi and hinoura shiro #2 with joy.

.

 

[Arcticyam]

I really enjoyed the sharpening and fresh off stones edge of Wakui V2, but found the tooth dropped off a cliff when it decided to go. Any chance you've tried that vs his white 2? Curious if he treats them differently.

So far I've had the same experience. It's one of the best cutters I've tried, when sharp. It gave me that wow factor when I first tried it and just falls through produce effortlessly but I've also found it seems to dull quicker than other knives with similar steel.

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Truly amazing information thank you for taking the time to share!

I definitely find all of this stuff entertaining and I want to learn more. I want to eventually make knives for myself. I'm not quite ready yet. I don't like to pick up a hobby and not have done extensive research about it. I'm even considering taking class on metallurgy.

Thanks again!

Thanks for sharing!

I think lots of older members who were steel nerds are no longer active here or care less to repeat same stuff over and over like u said.

I use Larrin’s website and zknives often but sometimes its not easy to find what u looking for. I bookmarked your comment.

Anytime!

 

[KBert]

Milan’s prospective on Au. Not vs. Japanese steels but worth mentioning.

View attachment 379252

Oh wow, that was my question. Small world.

I like Apex Ultra and will usually chose it if it is available. In my last custom it was a 30% premium though which is of course significant. But that seems to be in line with the amount of extra work involved, as shared by Milan.