Are all single bevels hand laminated?

[Pie]

They can’t ALL be, right? Is there any way to tell?

Im curious as to whether the couple entry level single bevels I have are hand laminated.

 

[refcast]

If the lamination line is EXTREMELY straight everywhere, on the front and ura, it's probably not hand laminated.

I think the ultra cheap Sakai yanagis with metal ferrule are pre laminated

 

[Lurkernomore]

If there’s no soft steel showing on the back they’re made from laminate. A good example would be kurosaki‘s blue steel yanagi.
Stainless steel single bevels are generally made from laminate.

 

[Greasylake]

Here is an example of the straightness of a non-hand laminated deba

 

[refcast]

Deba are the trickiest for me because, the thicker stock, there's less forging down, and the geometry is thicker, too. So by the process, there's going to be less waviness

 

[Pie]

Here is an example of the straightness of a non-hand laminated deba

View attachment 214679

Ohhh okay I see. Yeah that one’s pretty straight.

Mine aren’t crazy wavy but they’re definitely not like that.

Thanks guys!

 

[Lurkernomore]

Ohhh okay I see. Yeah that one’s pretty straight.

Mine aren’t crazy wavy but they’re definitely not like that.

Thanks guys!

The straight lamination line is a tell tale sign of laminate but also of a stamped knife. Hammer forged knives made from laminate show wavy lamination lines. The only way to tell those apart is by looking at the back.

 

[bsfsu]

A Japanese blacksmith that I buy from told me that he uses pre-laminated steel (sanmai and rikizai) for his double bevel knives and laminates his own single bevel knives. The laminated steel must sit before it can be forged, longer blades can sit for up to 3 years before being forged.

 

[blokey]

A Japanese blacksmith that I buy from told me that he uses pre-laminated steel (sanmai and rikizai) for his double bevel knives and laminates his own single bevel knives. The laminated steel must sit before it can be forged, longer blades can sit for up to 3 years before being forged.

Probably for stress relief build during the forging, factories do this with their rolled steel, too.

 

[blokey]

Kind wondering how Jin made the knife, the lamination line is the straightest I ever seen. The iron, copper and HSS clad is also quite interesting.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-price-jin-210mm-miroshi-deba.58008/

 

[MowgFace]

Kind wondering how Jin made the knife, the lamination line is the straightest I ever seen. The iron, copper and HSS clad is also quite interesting.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-price-jin-210mm-miroshi-deba.58008/

Maybe ask @JBroida ? He has the most knowledge on Jin as far as I know

 

[Lurkernomore]

Kind wondering how Jin made the knife, the lamination line is the straightest I ever seen. The iron, copper and HSS clad is also quite interesting.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-price-jin-210mm-miroshi-deba.58008/

The guy may have owned a roller, they’re not that big or expensive. After the initial forge weld he could have rolled the blanks out instead of hammering. Not sure if that’s already enough to yield such a clean line though.

 

[blokey]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...lue-steel-no-2-yanagiba-240mm-to-300mm-3sizesHow's lamination like this down? The lamination line in the back is wavy but in a very orderly way.
Also what's people's opinion on Shigehiro?
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/shigehiro/products/shigehiro-yanagiba-270mm

 

[M1k3]

Probably sandblasted using a pattern.

 

[Pie]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...lue-steel-no-2-yanagiba-240mm-to-300mm-3sizesHow's lamination like this down? The lamination line in the back is wavy but in a very orderly way.
Also what's people's opinion on Shigehiro?
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/shigehiro/products/shigehiro-yanagiba-270mm

Hang on a second, i thought we were talking about the one on the bevel. Is the back what we’re supposed to be looking at?

 

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Hang on a second, i thought we were talking about the one on the bevel. Is the back what we’re supposed to be looking at?

You should be looking at the back/ura.

I have heard that no lamination line on the ura=rolled laminate. So both of those are probably forge welded/hand laminated etc.

 

[blokey]

You should be looking at the back/ura.

I have heard that no lamination line on the ura=rolled laminate. So both of those are probably forge welded/hand laminated etc.

Some of the pre laminated stock do have lines on their ura, look at this stainless Aus10, probably prelaminated stock by Aichi then grounded by others
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOODMqI

 

[Corradobrit1]

The ugliness of the ura side of TF yanagiba's is indicative of prelaminated san mai bar stock ground flat on one side.

Exhibit A
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-denka-300mm-yanagiba.60017/

 

[superworrier]

Probably sandblasted using a pattern.

I think they actually use a piece of metal that shape. I think I saw it on YouTube

 

[M1k3]

I think they actually use a piece of metal that shape. I think I saw it on YouTube

We probably saw the same thing.

 

[Lurkernomore]

https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...lue-steel-no-2-yanagiba-240mm-to-300mm-3sizesHow's lamination like this down? The lamination line in the back is wavy but in a very orderly way.
Also what's people's opinion on Shigehiro?
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/shigehiro/products/shigehiro-yanagiba-270mm

You start with a rectangular or triangular piece cut off from the hagane. That cut will determine the shape of the lamination line on the back. If you evenly hammer it out the line will be just slightly wavy, some are even straight. Montanren is cool in that regard. For an evenly wavy line you have to estimate the factor by which things get stretched out and then cut a compressed version of the line you want into the hagane. You don’t need to blast anything, it works with stone slurry the traditional way.

The Chinese knife you posted should be three layer laminate that’s asymmetrically ground. The cladding going all the way to the tip is the giveaway. Takayuki have been doing a similar thing for their 33 layer boning knives and the TF is also the made that way.

 

[Miyamoto Musashi]

I have heard that no lamination line on the ura=rolled laminate. So both of those are probably forge welded/hand laminated etc.

Some of the pre laminated stock do have lines on their ura, look at this stainless Aus10, probably prelaminated stock by Aichi then grounded by others
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOODMqI

This is interesting. I’ve never seen a line on the ura go all the to the tip like that though. I’m used to seeing a lamination line that is pretty short, typically less than half of the length of the knife.

I’m inclined to agree with @Lurkernomore they seem much more knowledgeable on this subject than I am.

 

[blokey]

You start with a rectangular or triangular piece cut off from the hagane. That cut will determine the shape of the lamination line on the back. If you evenly hammer it out the line will be just slightly wavy, some are even straight. Montanren is cool in that regard. For an evenly wavy line you have to estimate the factor by which things get stretched out and then cut a compressed version of the line you want into the hagane. You don’t need to blast anything, it works with stone slurry the traditional way.

The Chinese knife you posted should be three layer laminate that’s asymmetrically ground. The cladding going all the way to the tip is the giveaway. Takayuki have been doing a similar thing for their 33 layer boning knives and the TF is also the made that way.

Thanks, that make sense.

The ugliness of the ura side of TF yanagiba's is indicative of prelaminated san mai bar stock ground flat on one side.

Exhibit A
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-denka-300mm-yanagiba.60017/

TF always manage to surprise me with his pearl castle, oink oink

 

[McMan]

You start with a rectangular or triangular piece cut off from the hagane. That cut will determine the shape of the lamination line on the back. If you evenly hammer it out the line will be just slightly wavy, some are even straight. Montanren is cool in that regard. For an evenly wavy line you have to estimate the factor by which things get stretched out and then cut a compressed version of the line you want into the hagane. You don’t need to blast anything, it works with stone slurry the traditional way.

AFAIK, the wavy/tooth pattern is cut beforehand. It starts off as a key shape and is not simply the result of even hammering, though hammering does ‘stretch’ the teeth a bit. Using a pre-cut pattern assures aesthetic consistency between knives.

@khashy brought this up five years ago in this thread: Hamon on hon kasumi single bevels
He linked to a good video of Ikeda making single-bevels where Ikeda discusses/shows how he laminates the a wavy piece on the ura side.
I think a few of us were thinking of this video. It took me forever to find it.


Here is the start:

Here is the result (Shiraki and Gesshin Hide pictured below, not Ikeda, but same aesthetics):

 

[blokey]

AFAIK, the wavy/tooth pattern is cut beforehand. It starts off as a key shape and is not simply the result of even hammering, though hammering does ‘stretch’ the teeth a bit. Using a pre-cut pattern assures aesthetic consistency between knives.

@khashy brought this up five years ago in this thread: Hamon on hon kasumi single bevels
He linked to a good video of Ikeda making single-bevels where Ikeda discusses/shows the how he laminates the a wavy piece on the ura side.
I think a few of us were thinking of this video. It took me forever to find it.


Here is the start:
View attachment 218483

View attachment 218484
Here is the result (Shiraki and Gesshin Hide pictured below, not Ikeda, but same aesthetics):
View attachment 218485
View attachment 218486

Thanks for the video, that’s really clear, tho I think he mean the same thing in “For an evenly wavy line you have to estimate the factor by which things get stretched out and then cut a compressed version of the line you want into the hagane.”

 

[Pie]

Not sure you can see much of anything but here are the single bevels I have sitting out

None of them are perfectly straight, I can’t tell with the takobiki but just my imagination says it’s gotta be done old school.

 

[Miyamoto Musashi]

Some of the pre laminated stock do have lines on their ura, look at this stainless Aus10, probably prelaminated stock by Aichi then grounded by others
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOODMqI

To add one more thing that I have heard from someone who lives in Japan and works in this business.

“All stainless single and double bevels are made from rolled laminate, as well as all stainless clad knives. Carbon steel/mild steel double bevel knives are also 99% rolled laminate.

Single bevel carbon steel knives with mild steel cladding are the only kind where forge welding by hand is possible and feasible yet we see an influx of laminate. Either because they can’t do it or can’t be arsed.”

 

[Lurkernomore]

Single bevel carbon steel knives with mild steel cladding are the only kind where forge welding by hand is possible and feasible yet we see an influx of laminate. Either because they can’t do it or can’t be arsed.”

Feasibility is probably the main reason. Laminate is just faster. I don’t quite get why kurosaki wouldn’t hand laminate his 700$ yanagis, but for entry level single bevels I wouldn’t be surprised if they switched to laminate over the next few years. You can cut it into shapes already resembling a compressed version of a knife with a tang and a tapered tip, saving not only the time for the forge weld but the forging is faster as well.

 

[Pie]

To add one more thing that I have heard from someone who lives in Japan and works in this business.

“All stainless single and double bevels are made from rolled laminate, as well as all stainless clad knives. Carbon steel/mild steel double bevel knives are also 99% rolled laminate.

Single bevel carbon steel knives with mild steel cladding are the only kind where forge welding by hand is possible and feasible yet we see an influx of laminate. Either because they can’t do it or can’t be arsed.”

I’m guessing TF is one of the few exceptions.

I’m curious, is there any truly tangible, discernible differences in performance between forge welding and pre laminated?

 

[blokey]

I’m guessing TF is one of the few exceptions.

I’m curious, is there any truly tangible, discernible differences in performance between forge welding and pre laminated?

I don’t think so, as long as the heat treatment and grind is done right. Tho bad welding may result in delamination later.