Are any of the very inexpensive diamond sharpening plate worth having?

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by 2bApical?, Jan 3, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Jan 3, 2019 #1

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I need like a 1000 grit, maybe 400 ish and 3k-4k. The inexpensive silicone carbide stones I have do not impress me. I like the idea of diamonds speed but don't like the price of the DMT's. Any sleeper diamond plates out there. Mainly need an everyday or every few day grit. Not into soaking. Thanks
     
  2. Jan 3, 2019 #2

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2,010
    inexpensive diamonds is an tough one...

    AFAIK... the cheaper ones have thinner diamond layers and/or
    they use diamonds that breakdown faster and/or
    the bond to the plate are weaker so they shed faster

    1200 atoma or DMT are reputable but not cheap
     
  3. Jan 4, 2019 #3

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    853
    If you want the best quality for the best price Tsuboman Atoma is the way to go. They're fast, consistent and last a long time. If you simply want the best possible quality Noritake is the way to go. It's more expensive but the quality is unmatched.

    https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/c712302754?lang=en&rc=yaucb
     
  4. Jan 12, 2019 #4

    rick alen

    rick alen

    rick alen

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2013
    Messages:
    577
    Jon's set of 1K and 6k stones are probably hard to beat for sharpening jobs, 4mm of resin bonded diamond
     
  5. Jan 12, 2019 #5

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,420
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    not even close to 4mm... more like 2mm of thickness... we have other stones that are close to 4mm, but they arent the ones in the set
     
  6. Jan 12, 2019 #6
    "If you want the best quality for the best price....."

    Me thinks the man is looking for a budget minded solution. If DMT @ $80ish for a duo stone is high then JKI Diamond Stones prob ding warrant discussion.

    OP - "Smith" does a low cost knockoff of DMT, available at Lowes, etc. Its what I used on hunting knives before I fell into the rabbit pit. It doesn't suck.
     
  7. Jan 13, 2019 #7

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    basically NO.

    Also the only diamond plates worth owning are the coarse ones. the high grits from lets say 500 and up are much much better handled by real stones. I recommend the shapton glass since these are the slowest wearing ones i've tried. if you look up the site scienceofsharp he test different diamond plates and then put the blades under a SEM (scanning electron microscope) and guess what. only the dmt 325 and 600 are good. the higher grit ones actually makes the edges DULLER! yeah real science. proven with science.

    i have the dmt coarse (325 grit)
    atoma 400
    dmt diaflat 10 inch 160
    dianovas biggest 60/30 micron its maybe 4x2 inch
    some crapola C/F for 25€ 6x2
    also tried the atoma 140 but i dont own it.

    the dmt C handles maybe 2 blade thinnings before it "turns fine" and loses its bite. its still has the diamonds on there but its lost it bite big time. still quite fast. not so good for flattening stones since its gets stuck on the stones like vacuum.

    the atoma 400 also only handles about 2 good thinnings before it loses bite. but i still think its quite a bit faster than the worn dmt C even after its lost its initial bite (talking sharpening and metal removal). its also lighter and easier to handle when flattening stones. no suction effect.

    the diaflat its quite a brutal stone. its ultra aggressive, this one uses the hard coat technology that is supposed to be the same as real industrial machine grinder coatings (which the regular dmr and the atoma definitely isn't).
    i have thinned several knives and several stones with it, including 4 quite warped sintered al-ox stone (missarka stones) and it still has very much bite. its not as bitey as new but its not bad to be honest.
    this is also available as an 8 inch and that one is cheaper. one thing though. when thinning blades you have to follow up with a 220 or so waterstone. the scratches are so deep its insane. and obviously its ultra fast.
    it seems i cant make this stone lose its bite. and i use maximum pressure when thinning on this stone (which really kills other diamond stones pretty fast).

    dianovas are not real bench stones, these are double sided thin flat "steels". these also lose bite but they dont get that much finer with use. good for hand holding.

    crapola cheap ass diamond stone, dont know the brand. this one visibly lost diamonds after about 2 minutes of reshaping the tip of a global. the stone is basically 2 thin sheets with a plastic core. and they all came quite warped (i bought 3 since they were cheap, but i could just as well have bought 150mm dmts for the price in retrospect). no way to bend then into shape. tried to flatten a stone with one and the stone wore off all the diamonds on both ends after about 30 seconds. total crap and money wasted. they work on knives though.

    atoma 140 is good and fast. much faster than the 400 but i have a feeling it will also lose its bit quite fast after a few thinnings just like the 400. very fast on stones but i feel i will have to use a finer stone on fine stones like 2k and up since the plate is so coarse. its the same with the diaflat, its just very very coarse. for high grit stones i usually rub 2 regular flattened stones together to get the needed finish on there. like a 12k and an 8k. or a 1k and a 3k (not needed for the 1k but for the 3k). the atoma 400 is more useful for knives though i think. but slower for stones.

    ---------------------------------

    personally i would simply save up for a quality plate. Atoma/dmt/ez-lap the smaller ones are quite cheap the 150mm. personally i wouldn't bother with them though since an 8 inch will be so much faster on both knives and stones so its not really worth it to get the small ones. atomas are better for stones and dmts are better for blades (unless we're talking the diaflat since its total beast for both).
    can't go wrong with either though. get both :)

    also just so you know. no diamond stone is faster than the shapton glass/pro 220 on steel. these are like 100% faster.
     
  8. Jan 13, 2019 #8

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    I think the difference between the dmt/atoma and the diaflat dmt is the process used. the cheap ones use diamond dust in nickel plating. basically an electrical/chemical process and the diaflat is most likely some thermal process. but it can't be that high temp though. at most 700-800C or so (since above that temp diamonds aka carbon will turn into something called carbon dioxide, and thats a gas) :)
     
  9. Jan 13, 2019 #9

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    how long do these last compared to atomas in your opinion?
     
    lucabrasi likes this.
  10. Jan 13, 2019 #10

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,420
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    much longer for me... atomas give me about a year max based on how we use them... dmt about 4-6 months (about on par with the flattening pates we sell, though i like the ones we have as they stick a bit less). The diamond stones last we between 2-4 years depending on which ones we're talking about and what i've using it for. Also, I have diamond stones that cut faster than your shapton 220 ;) (not plates, but rather stones)
     
  11. Jan 13, 2019 #11

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    which stones do you have that will outcut the shapton glass 220? i might try it.
    but as it is now i have about 28-29mm of shapton pro 220 left (i glued 2 of them together), and maybe 5mm of glass 220 left (these are 7mm when new).

    Can you tell us the manufacturing process for these thicker diamond layers. is it simply diamond dust in a plastic or diamond dust mixed in a "regular" stone?

    to be honest i have been quite disappointed with dmts regular stones and atomas since they lose bite (and efficiency) so quickly. thats why i bought the diaflat. and the diaflat seems to be several 1000% more durable. it still lost initial bite quite fast (after 4 missarkas) but its still ultra efficient. those 4 stones would probably have totally killed an atoma 140 imo. i dont think i will be able to kill the diaflat any time soon with flattening stones and thinning projects. i'd say its highly unlikely. and it also comes with a 5 year warranty :)

    how many manufacturers did you try before settling on the ones you now sell?
     
  12. Jan 13, 2019 #12

    JBroida

    JBroida

    JBroida

    Founding Member KKF Vendor

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,420
    Location:
    Beverly Hills, CA
    i had a 400 girt version of my 800 grit vitrified diamond stone made... its crazy fast, but it also dishes faster than the 800 (WAY slower than the 220 though)... that being said, it dished too fast for the $400 it cost me. Even the 800 is close to the speed of the shapton.
     
  13. Jan 15, 2019 #13

    Keith Sinclair

    Keith Sinclair

    Keith Sinclair

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,499
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Cheap diamond plates are not worth it. The Atoma 140 is a good plate and they have gone down in price. Paid almost 100.00 for my first one years ago. Last one I bought was under 75.00. Like it better than the X coarse DMT.

    Have the 1000 grit JKI diamond stone. It has held up very well for the various sharpening duties use it for.
     
  14. Jan 18, 2019 #14

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
     
  15. Jan 18, 2019 #15

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
     
  16. Jan 18, 2019 #16

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Thanks for the informative response inferno. The scienceofsharp info was quite surprising. The edge from the 600 looked pretty good. Rather unbelievable how the higher grits mangled the 600 grit edge. The 6 inch 600 grit diasharp are fairly reasonable but probable too coarse for everyday touching up. Looks like I should just put out for the Shapton Pro which is so near universally respected.
     
  17. Feb 24, 2019 #17

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Yo inferno, that Science of Sharp diamond stone progression showing a rougher surface above 600 has me brain tweaked a bit. There is someone else on youtube seemingly showing a much better edge from a higher grit dmt than SOS from the side. How can a company with the status of dmt be putting out stones above 600 that tear up a knife so bad? Mr. burrfection compared an Atoma 1200 to a Bester 1200 and got excellent results cutting paper with the Atoma, he said equal results but it seemed to me that the Atoma 1200 was a bit smoother. SOS did say that his conclusion wasn't universal to all diamond stones. In this video there is a side view of a 1000 grit whetstone vs a 1200 grit DMT starting a 3:00. The side view of the diamond 1200 looks pretty good.
     
  18. Feb 24, 2019 #18

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    853
    It baffles me how fast some of you are going through diamond plates. I bought the Atoma 600 and 1200 I'm using right now 2 years ago for my chisels and plane blades at work and they're still going strong. Maybe it's the iron cladding of a knife that wreaks havoc on them.
     
  19. Feb 24, 2019 #19

    Kippington

    Kippington

    Kippington

    A small green parrot Hobbyist Craftsman

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Messages:
    738
    Location:
    Australia
    Maybe its a camera angle illusion, but the sharpening angle this guy puts on his knives is crazy thick... I thought he was bread-knifing the chips out at the beginning, but he keeps it up all the way through! :eek:
     
  20. Feb 24, 2019 #20

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826

    The SEM photos are like 5-10kX mag so I rather trust those more than peoples usb microscopes. How dmt can be outputting these? I have no idea. I dont even think they know about it.

    I can get excellent results cutting paper off my shapton pro 220 if I want. Depending on how I use it. Its not a measure of quality in my mind.
     
  21. Feb 24, 2019 #21

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    If you raise the angle every time you sharpen it goes a lot faster to sharpen! :)
     
  22. Feb 24, 2019 #22

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    PalmRoyale

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    853
    I think it's probably the shape and size of the diamonds. Maybe it's like the difference between a coticule and Belgian blue. The garnets in a coticule are smaller and have sharper corners so they penetrate the steel deeper and cut more aggressive. The garnets in a Belgian blue are larger with more obtuse angles so they're gentler on the steel.
     
  23. Feb 24, 2019 #23

    inferno

    inferno

    inferno

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Yes it seems related to size/shape of the diamonds and how dense they are packed on the plate. I also think the elasticity of the material being cut matters.
     
  24. Feb 24, 2019 #24

    Nemo

    Nemo

    Nemo

    Staff Member Global Moderators

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,840
    Location:
    Southern NSW (Aus)
    And the edge becomes very robust!
     
  25. Feb 25, 2019 #25

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    2bApical?

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    50
    Location:
    San Francisco
    They should know about it now since I sent them an email and asked them to address the issue. They did not respond. There are people on youtube that like the quality of the Atoma 1200 over the dmt.
     
  26. Feb 25, 2019 #26

    rick alen

    rick alen

    rick alen

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2013
    Messages:
    577
    Funny, when you google dmt 8000 grit you get people telling you the stone starts out as a 3K, then after much wear-in acts like a 6K, but no finer. nothing about crappy edges though.
     

Share This Page