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WTS ATTENTION: PayPal Friends and Family - beware

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Edge

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All of you know that is not to be used when buying from the members that sale here on the forum.
Be sure to use the invoice or business send. It will cost a bit more to the seller, but you can always add a few $$ to pay the difference or split the difference by upping the price of the item a little bit.

But it has come to the "staff's" attention that at least one seller is encouraging the Friends and Family payment. This is a NO! If anything happens there is NO recourse.
If you do a sale/buy in that manner and it gets screwed up, do not expect anyone to be able to do anything to help you. Be sure to know who you are entering into a transaction with. And you may want to RUN away if they are pushing Friends and Family.


@Angie, if I may be so bold - let me (Matus) please add the following comment:

Everyone who offers anything for sale in the BST section is obliged to quote a price that includes whatever fees they expect to be paying. That means - if a potential buyer expresses interest via a private communication with the seller and then the seller asks for F&F - please let us know. That is unacceptable and will have consequences for the seller.

Of course we as a mod team can not 'stop' anyone for paying Friends & Family, but every buyer that is about to type 'PM sent' in that WTS thread should know that they are entitled to pay with Goods & Services and not be coerced to cover extra fees or pay with F&F.
 
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Posted this in the other for sale section but it should be seen here:

Outside of this forum for most of my hobby stuff I have been accepting paypal FF or other payments only. Reason being is in my state if your transactions go over $600 you get a 1099k from paypal which is a hassle to deal with. This is going to be the case for every state in 2022. Also, G&S never protects the seller, it sucks. I've sold things where buyers lie about the item when they receive it, and paypal immediately sides in their favor.

It would be nice to have a threshold, or if you were a supporting member on here and weren't forced to use G&S. Most of the people I know are moving away from it and instead are using zelle/cashapp. It's pretty easy to see if you are going to do an FF/some other payment method if the person is a legit member of the community.
 

deskjockey

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No comment regarding the character of members here. Paypal will not cover you for damage during shipping or porch pirate theft. Neither will the USPS insurance.

Registered mail and a USPS Money order (or orders) from me or to me these days.
 

McMan

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No comment regarding the character of members here. Paypal will not cover you for damage during shipping or porch pirate theft. Neither will the USPS insurance.

Registered mail and a USPS Money order (or orders) from me or to me these days.
USPS insurance does cover damage.
 

marc4pt0

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...Some US States require merchant reporting at a lower threshold:
  • Vermont, Massachusetts, Virginia, Maryland: Have a $600 USD total payment volume threshold from sales of goods or services in a single calendar year. That’s regardless of the number of transactions...
With this now, I’m learning that alternative methods of payment may be advantageous to avoid having to report a ”second income“. And possibly getting taxed twice in some cases. Of course this hinges heavily on trust.

As @jedy617 mentioned, pp Often errors on the side of the buyer. Some respected gents in this community have discontinued use of pp for this very reason. One a retailer, another a maker. It’s tough knowing which way to go.
 
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...Some US States require merchant reporting at a lower threshold:
  • Vermont, Massachusetts, Virginia, Maryland: Have a $600 USD total payment volume threshold from sales of goods or services in a single calendar year. That’s regardless of the number of transactions...
With this now, I’m learning that alternative methods of payment may be advantageous to avoid having to report a ”second income“. And possibly getting taxed twice in some cases. Of course this hinges heavily on trust.

As @jedy617 mentioned, pp Often errors on the side of the buyer. Some respected gents in this community have discontinued use of pp for this very reason. One a retailer, another a maker. It’s tough knowing which way to go.
Starting in December, all states will be $600.
 
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I have zero issues paying Family & Friends to long-standing members of this forum.
That’s a mistake alterwisser.

Someone took over my kkf identity and made a fraudulent sale. That person convinced the member to pay f&f. As a result there is no recourse with PayPal. If they had bought the item in a standard sale PayPal probably would have made the buyer whole.

The reality is, the buyer trusted my kkf identity and outside of a conversation to verify I was actually me that’s just not enough to trust and the friends and family mode strips you as a buyer of any protection.

EDIT

I believe this sale I referred to is what led the mods to clarify this policy. It just happened.

If you actually knew me through the forum and read the guys posting you may have been suspicious, his use of language doesn’t really match mine. Unfortunately, my little avatar of zero mostel became a badge that the buyer ended up trusting.
 
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That’s a mistake alterwisser.

Someone took over my kkf identity and made a fraudulent sale. That person convinced the member to pay f&f. As a result there is no recourse with PayPal. If they had bought the item in a standard sale PayPal probably would have made the buyer whole.

The reality is, the buyer trusted my kkf identity and outside of a conversation to verify I was actually me that’s just not enough to trust and the friends and family mode strips you as a buyer of any protection.

EDIT

I believe this sale I referred to is what led the mods to clarify this policy. It just happened.

If you actually knew me through the forum and read the guys posting you may have been suspicious, his use of language doesn’t really match mine. Unfortunately, my little avatar of zero mostel became a badge that the buyer ended up trusting.

Sorry to hear that!

well, it’s not an issue for me anyway as I don’t buy knives anymore 😉
 

schutzen-jager

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i will not deal with anyone that requests F+F - the fees are well worth the protections given to both buyers + sellers - not worth the risks to save a small amount for most transactions -
 

HumbleHomeCook

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That’s a mistake alterwisser.

Someone took over my kkf identity and made a fraudulent sale. That person convinced the member to pay f&f. As a result there is no recourse with PayPal. If they had bought the item in a standard sale PayPal probably would have made the buyer whole.

The reality is, the buyer trusted my kkf identity and outside of a conversation to verify I was actually me that’s just not enough to trust and the friends and family mode strips you as a buyer of any protection.

EDIT

I believe this sale I referred to is what led the mods to clarify this policy. It just happened.

If you actually knew me through the forum and read the guys posting you may have been suspicious, his use of language doesn’t really match mine. Unfortunately, my little avatar of zero mostel became a badge that the buyer ended up trusting.

Good to see you back Rick. :)
 

daniel_il

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I got scammed on BST for 140$.

its was a WTS Z wear 180 petty from a very well known member account that has been hacked.

only thing that saved my money is that i didn't agreed paying f&f so i got the money back.
 

tcmx3

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What's going on with all these account hacks? I would think this should be the more pressing topic to discuss. Very worrisome!

large scale social media breaches + people reusing passwords.

it's shockingly easy to buy passwords, credit card numbers, etc.

I also agree that it should be the primary issue the mod team try addressing before moving on to other challenges. I know Im the wet blanket and people are desperate to save their 5 dollars or whatever but I would simply start banning people who use F&F, and obviously the handwritten timestamp suggestion made elsewhere is a really excellent idea.
 
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I heard the information of 1 billion FB/IG accounts were leaked yesterday. What if you use the same username and password for your IG and KKF accounts? No platform is immune from the issue now.
 

ian

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I also agree that it should be the primary issue the mod team try addressing before moving on to other challenges. I know Im the wet blanket and people are desperate to save their 5 dollars or whatever but I would simply start banning people who use F&F, and obviously the handwritten timestamp suggestion made elsewhere is a really excellent idea.

Banning people who use F&F? I don't think the mod team should be policing private messages. If a buyer wants to bring a complaint to the mods that the seller is pushing F&F in a creepy way, that's one thing. But there are lots of cases where I'm still very confident about using F&F here, e.g. a member I know selling a knife that I know hasn't been previously listed, with an accompanying accurate description written in their voice.
 

tcmx3

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Banning people who use F&F? I don't think the mod team should be policing private messages. If a buyer wants to bring a complaint to the mods that the seller is pushing F&F in a creepy way, that's one thing. But there are lots of cases where I'm still very confident about using F&F here, e.g. a member I know selling a knife that I know hasn't been previously listed, with an accompanying accurate description written in their voice.

Im not suggesting the mods do a dive on PMs. however, I would support a policy that if you are caught it's a temporary ban.

I dunno, I seem to be the only person who thinks that this issue is worth killing with fire. Also I really hate the conversations where people ***** about how they think they should get to use paypal's payment processing without paying for it. if people dont want to use paypal because of the fee structure, then dont use paypal IMO. and I will continue to because I dont think they charge all that much compared to the CC payment processors.

the thing is that while these issues are scarce, any market is based on being able to trust the market. as soon as that erodes the whole thing will collapse. it's worth at least considering extreme measures. and again, were I just enforcing this, I would not be diving through inboxes, Id just ban you if I caught you for 6 months as a lesson.
 
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Regardless the discussion is kind of pointless right now. The other thread about this was shut down and the mods posted this:

"Not sure how Angie's note turned into a diatribe about PP practices and what the future may bring.

I'll type slow. The OP shall not require F/F as a condition of a transaction. The end.

Any agreement for payment that is entered into between buyer and seller is between them and them alone. PP, Vemo, Glittering rocks - the forum has no interest.

Should the buyer agree to a FF payment, he does so at his own risk. The dispute rate in BST is very low but it does happen.

If at some time in the future the forum becomes liable for taxation or satisfactory transactions, the forum will likely (in my opinion) get out of the bst business."

Done
 

tcmx3

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Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. "Use the payment system we want you to use even though we aren't e-commerce platform just a discussion forum or you will be banned"

so sorry Im getting in the way of a policy change you seem to REALLY want that enables scamming
 
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so sorry Im getting in the way of a policy change you seem to REALLY want that enables scamming
Weird how I've used PayPal for 20 years and the only times I've had problems where when G&S were involved and the buyer lied about an item. Never had a problem using F&F with people with established history. Sounds like a you problem.

Again, mod post before the last thread was shut down:

"Any agreement for payment that is entered into between buyer and seller is between them and them alone. PP, Vemo, Glittering rocks - the forum has no interest". The official stance is that the seller must not make other payment methods a requirement. If someone isn't comfortable using FF move on.

Replying to @HumbleHomeCook as well with that one. No other discussion needed.
 
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Screenshot_20211005-111749_Chrome.jpg
 

tcmx3

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Weird how I've used PayPal for 20 years and the only times I've had problems where when G&S were involved and the buyer lied about an item. Never had a problem using F&F with people with established history. Sounds like a you problem.

Again, mod post before the last thread was shut down:

"Any agreement for payment that is entered into between buyer and seller is between them and them alone. PP, Vemo, Glittering rocks - the forum has no interest". The official stance is that the seller must not make other payment methods a requirement. If someone isn't comfortable using FF move on.

Replying to @HumbleHomeCook as well with that one. No other discussion needed.

we literally just had a case where an established member's account got hacked. so youre just admitting that had the circumstances of the timing/item/price been slightly different you'd have been taken. part of why we need these rules is to protect people like you from yourselves
 
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we literally judy had a case where an established member's account got hacked. so youre just admitting that had the circumstances of the timing/item/price been slightly different you'd have been taken. part of why we need these rules is to protect people like you from yourselves
And the guy replied that it was quite obvious from his messages from the way he spoke that the account was hacked.

Again, if I get scammed using FF it's on me. You just read the official response on the admins take. No one will be requiring FF, and it's up to the buyer/seller if they want to take that risk. There really isn't anything more to it. If you want to ban people who use a payment method you don't like, start your own forum and police everyone's private transactions.
 
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