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tcmx3

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And the guy replied that it was quite obvious from his messages from the way he spoke that the account was hacked.

Again, if I get scammed using FF it's on me. You just read the official response on the admins take. No one will be requiring FF, and it's up to the buyer/seller if they want to take that risk. There really isn't anything more to it. If you want to ban people who use a payment method you don't like, start your own forum and police everyone's private transactions.

rules exist to protect everyone. you not only seem to be asking to eventually get scammed yourself but to make it possible for other people to as well.

honestly you're exactly the sort of person I'd steer WELL clear of doing BST business with. people who invite trouble often find it.
 
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rules exist to protect everyone. you not only seem to be asking to eventually get scammed yourself but to make it possible for other people to as well.

honestly you're exactly the sort of person I'd steer WELL clear of doing BST business with. people who invite trouble often find it.
Exactly. And the rules state that the official stance is that the buyer must not make FF a requirement so what are you complaining about? Steer clear of me all you want, every transaction I've had on here have all been FF and flawless though and agreed by both parties; if the other person isn't comfortable with it, I always take G&S. You do you man, but I'm good as is. You're yelling at the wind here.
 
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I’m member of another forum where items of much higher value are sold and bought.

EVERY item for sale needs to have a picture with a piece of paper on it. Said paper needs to have the username of the seller and the date on it. The papers needs to have been thoroughly rumpled and then unfolded/smoothed again. That way it’s very hard to photoshop anything.

It doesn’t fix all problems but I think it would deter scammers. Cause ANYONE can easily grab pics of knives from the internet especially if it’s not a custom…. But even then: the makers have probably posted them online.
 
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I’m member of another forum where items of much higher value are sold and bought.

EVERY item for sale needs to have a picture with a piece of paper on it. Said paper needs to have the username of the seller and the date on it. The papers needs to have been thoroughly rumpled and then unfolded/smoothed again. That way it’s very hard to photoshop anything.

It doesn’t fix all problems but I think it would deter scammers. Cause ANYONE can easily grab pics of knives from the internet especially if it’s not a custom…. But even then: the makers have probably posted them online.
Same, timestamps are always good.
 

WildBoar

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rules exist to protect everyone.
I almost spit coffee out my nose when I read this one :p

Rules can also exist for one of the following reasons (which is not the case here, but in general): 1) to benefit the rulemaker, 2) to benefit the friends/ supports/ associates of the rulemaker, and (not the case here), and 3) to control people.
 
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I think you guys are now arguing ideologies. Personal responsibility vs protecting people from themselves for the good of the whole. Rules only exist to control people, but societies can’t exist without rules so the only argument is which rules and for whose benefit. That would be a political discussion and against the rules here.

Rules about payment as described by Angie and Dave are pretty straight forward and flexible, so I am a bit lost on what you guys are arguing about.
 

tcmx3

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I almost spit coffee out my nose when I read this one :p

Rules can also exist for one of the following reasons (which is not the case here, but in general): 1) to benefit the rulemaker, 2) to benefit the friends/ supports/ associates of the rulemaker, and (not the case here), and 3) to control people.

Im not talking about rules as a general proposition. Im specifically talking about the forum rules for buying and selling.

how is that not abundantly clear? (Im 110% sure it is)
 

daveb

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I've seen the pic / user name requirement on Reddit. I would not be in favor of making it a requirement (I don't like rules) but if a seller were to include that, it's certainly their prerogative. May make potential buyers feel more comfortable.

Reddit does not require the 30 days / 50 posts that we do to post in bst - I think this is a stronger deterrent to scammers.
 
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I think another issue that needs to be addressed is people not providing all information on the item being sold and not providing proper pictures of the item being sold

It’s easy to get an item and realize that it’s not quite what you saw in the pictures because the pictures were of such terrible quality and people aren’t taking care to appropriately and properly represent the item to a high enough standard

I really don’t understand people selling stones without showing proofs from the stones use on both the stone and the knife

I think that really should be made a standard

On top of that people need to realize even if you use PayPal that isn’t going to 100% protect you and it’s important to ask the seller for the references and check to make sure they have a history of good business

The final issue to consider is that I find a lot of times the buyer is aware of the rules but refuses to use PayPal. A lot of the younger people simply don’t have a PayPal account and refuse to use it, they prefer Venmo cash app even Bitcoin
 

WildBoar

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Im not talking about rules as a general proposition. Im specifically talking about the forum rules for buying and selling.

how is that not abundantly clear? (Im 110% sure it is)
Would have been clear if worded as 'The rules...' vs 'rules' in general. Wording is important. You may have been clear in your head, but not so to the readers. 👨‍🎓
 

tcmx3

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Would have been clear if worded as 'The rules...' vs 'rules' in general. Wording is important. You may have been clear in your head, but not so to the readers. 👨‍🎓

my guy they teach contextual reading in the fifth grade. in a conversation about the specific forum rules, if you cant figure out Im talking about the specific forum rules, that one is on you
 

icanhaschzbrgr

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Guys… I don't know about your countries, but here in mother russia we have freaking TONS of scammers everywhere. I got fake calls from banks almost daily (they claim there's some sus transaction and ask card details). I got emails about winning hundreds of thousands of dollars in a lotteries. Daily. I so forth and so on. The possibility of losing a bit of money on a knife transaction is not something that I really care about.

Besides… I've yet to see knife makers commenting in this tread. Those people who actually makes their living making knives are silent. I guess it's not because they are paypal fans, but cause there are many ways to screw transaction and F/F payment is not main source of troubles.

giphy.gif
 

ian

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my guy they teach contextual reading in the fifth grade. in a conversation about the specific forum rules, if you cant figure out Im talking about the specific forum rules, that one is on you

What’s with the hostility? @WildBoar made a good point. If you say “Rules are made to protect everyone” that is a general statement about rules, not something about the forum rules. The fact that contextual reading is taught in 5th grade or whatever isn’t an excuse to insult people when they’re confused by your misleading writing.
 

DitmasPork

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BST is fine with me, I've bought many knives without issue, happy that F&F is discouraged—if there was an issue I'd want some protection. TBH, when @rickbern 's account got hacked, I don't know him enough to have been able to tell it wasn't him.

Some commenters mention changing laws requiring 1099 forms, taxation, etc. A hassle yes, but perfectly sensible, overdue, since selling knife is income.

In my biz, I hate PP fees, but it's what many customers feel comfortable with.
 

daveb

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I agree, but if you're a scammer and willing to "invest" in a Supporting Membership, ......

AFTER the first such instance this may be reconsidered.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of unscrupulous postings that have been reported over the course of the last 10(?) years.

Give it a rest.
 
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AFTER the first such instance this may be reconsidered.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of unscrupulous postings that have been reported over the course of the last 10(?) years.

Give it a rest.
Exactly this. Why are we even talking about all these hypothetical situations that just don't happen. Changing this or that to stop a tiny number of bad people and bad transactions, I don't get it. Some here make it sound like accounts get hacked all the time and bad deals are done all the time in large numbers around here. This hasn't been happening so far. If this changes then sure new rules can be implemented, at present the cost benefit analysis just doesn't work in favor of any change.
 

tcmx3

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Exactly this. Why are we even talking about all these hypothetical situations that just don't happen. Changing this or that to stop a tiny number of bad people and bad transactions, I don't get it. Some here make it sound like accounts get hacked all the time and bad deals are done all the time in large numbers around here. This hasn't been happening so far. If this changes then sure new rules can be implemented, at present the cost benefit analysis just doesn't work in favor of any change.

one of the suggested changes is to put a handwritten username and timestamp on a piece of paper in your photos... that you already take.

I dont see how this is anything more than the tiniest of inconveniencies and would have stopped at least one of the last two incidents.
 

daveb

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my guy they teach contextual reading in the fifth grade. in a conversation about the specific forum rules, if you cant figure out Im talking about the specific forum rules, that one is on you

They probably teach spelling, capitalization and punctuation as well. You slept through that but woke up for the contextual reading part?

also we had an incident where a mod saw a thread posted with f&f and posted in it in a way that wasnt saying it was against the rules which some people will take as an endorsement of the seller, whether that's how it's meant or not it is reality.

And WdeF does that mean? Contextually of course.

:cool: (I'm kinda laughing as I type this one)


And now back to regular programming.
 

tcmx3

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They probably teach spelling, capitalization and punctuation as well. You slept through that but woke up for the contextual reading part?



And WdeF does that mean? Contextually of course.

:cool: (I'm kinda laughing as I type this one)


And now back to regular programming.

do you think Im going to not say anything because you're a mod?

you posted in a scam thread where the OP was asking for F&F with 'GLWS' instead of doing something about it, and that was after it was reported. people got scammed in that one. whether you recognize it or not, people view you as a source of authority because of your status here and not only do you not enforce the rules you argue against simple things that would help other people. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are a moderator since you have such a serious disdain for the rules, and are not satisfied having merely assisted a scammer, now you are arguing against even simple measures that would help and barely inconvenience anyone.

why not just give your mod duties up if you're so uninterested? Im sure the mod staff can find someone who wants to do it.
 
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do you think Im going to not say anything because you're a mod?

you posted in a scam thread where the OP was asking for F&F with 'GLWS' instead of doing something about it, and that was after it was reported. people got scammed in that one. whether you recognize it or not, people view you as a source of authority because of your status here and not only do you not enforce the rules you argue against simple things that would help other people. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are a moderator since you have such a serious disdain for the rules, and are not satisfied having merely assisted a scammer, now you are arguing against even simple measures that would help and barely inconvenience anyone.

why not just give your mod duties up if you're so uninterested? Im sure the mod staff can find someone who wants to do it.
Why the anger? We don't pay KKF for any service so mods are more like volunteer to me and I don't think they owe us anything.
 

daveb

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I think another issue that needs to be addressed is people not providing all information on the item being sold and not providing proper pictures of the item being sold......

It’s easy to get an item and realize that it’s not quite what you saw in the pictures because the pictures were of such terrible quality and people aren’t taking care to appropriately and properly represent the item to a high enough standard

I really don’t understand people selling stones without showing proofs from the stones use on both the stone and the knife

I think that really should be made a standard

Let me be sure I understand your issue. You want the mod team to review each WTS thread to ensure "proper" pictures are included, to judge the quality of the pictures, and to ensure they're to a high enough standard? And who defines proper?

Let me propose an alternative? If the description / pictures are not enough to support YOUR buying decision, how about YOU ask the seller for additional pictures or clarification. Or YOU don't buy.

Have said a gillion times the forum has a BST section to facilitate transactions between members. Hopefully they're all positive but the forum has no role in the transactions and will not be responsible if things go south.

The final issue to consider is that I find a lot of times the buyer is aware of the rules but refuses to use PayPal. A lot of the younger people simply don’t have a PayPal account and refuse to use it, they prefer Venmo cash app even Bitcoin

The BST rules require the seller to post as a PayPal transaction and prohibits asking for buyer to use FF or pay G&S fees. I'll type even slower this time; The forum has no interest in what terms of payment the buyer and seller agree to. PP, Venmo, Bitcoin, Shiny rocks, comic books, whatever. Contextually (thanks tcmx3) this means we don't give 2 f's how something gets paid for as long as the buyer and seller agree.

Is it clear as mud yet?
 

daveb

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I'll leave the rest of your post alone, but.

now you are arguing against even simple measures that would help and barely inconvenience anyone.

I'm in no way arguing against the picture / name proposal that has recently come up. It can be done voluntarily by any seller that wants to do so. It can be requested by any potential buyer that wants to see it. If a seller doesn't voluntarily post it, no harm. If a seller doesn't post it after it's requested, no harm. You don't have to buy. And he doesn't have to accommodate you.

As I've clearly said, I'm not in favor of requiring it. Do I want to review each bst post to ensure compliance? No. Do I think it's a solution that's searching for a problem? Yes. If the proposal gets enough traction to warrant a mod discussion I'll only be one of several voices heard.
 
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Three things:

Like many people, I've had 100% positive BST experiences here out of maybe 15-20 transactions in the past few years. A few minor snags but folks have universally been quick to make things right at any hint of a problem.

Whether you want to call it a rule, guideline, norm, including a username and timestamp is a good practice to take from Reddit that I'll aim to do going forward. Not saying Dave and mods need to police it, but I think it would be positive for this to become common practice.

More importantly, with these reports of accounts being stolen, anyone reading this who uses BST should take a minute to make sure they have a strong, unique password and enable 2FA. I did this just now and it took literally two minutes. This protects others from being scammed and you from having any info in PMs stolen or your reputation here damaged.
 
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The best mods are the ones who don't like rules, don't treat adults like children with handholding and protection and generally let members be unless something out of the ordinary happens. The best mods do the job because it needs to be done, but don't necessarily want to do it. I would hate for some power hungry mods running around throwing rules at us all the time and generally policing this place to no end. I really wouldn't want mods who really want to be mods. One of the reasons this place is great is that we barely see mods.

It is unfortunate that someone was taken, buyers should always ask for current pictures and do whatever makes them comfortable or just move on. Creating more rules for the sellers requires someone to police all sales posts and that is just not realistic. So I agree if sellers want they should post pictures with current date and buyers should ask for these if they want. I wouldn't make it a requirement due to the reasons already discussed.
 
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I don’t believe that I wrote anywhere requesting any assistance from the mods in any shape or form

Setting a standard is far different from policing a standard

I’m speaking about buyers and sellers THEMSELVES doing a better job with their transactions on BOTH sides

A lot of these things are something for us to address amongst ourselves which I believed we were doing in this thread

I think that’s where a lot of the confusion comes from is that people are wanting a standard but there really isn’t one so then you end up with buyers demanding such from the mods

From my perspective the less policing we have the better, and simply point people in the direction of resolving their own disputes, desire for standards, and etc instead
 
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