Yawn. Just another POS trying to cash in on the Japanese knife trend.
Bang for buck under $40?
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Yawn. Just another POS trying to cash in on the Japanese knife trend.
What about a Tojiro VG-10? (here and here). I've only seen them in 180mm though. I was going to suggest the Tojiro Pro series (the all silver ones), but it seems to be pricier than I remembered in my head. Maybe check out the options at this store and see if anything pops out. This one is 210mm but I know nothing about it.
WOK-a-holic
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thrift store
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If you can purchase a shibazi cleaver like the one on the most recent page of the show your newest knife buy thread for $40, I think that would definitely be the best performer in this price range.
killerfrenzi
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I'm edging towards upping my budget to $60 the more I look at it. That's absolute limit since I've already been pushing my budget. But that's almost Tojiro DP range.
I did get a chance to hold some knives at William Sonoma. The belly on German knives don't feel natural to me, so a Gyuto-style is more preferred.
Are there anything else in the $60 range I could consider?
Shun Sora
Tojiro Shirogami
Masahiro Gyuto
Tojiro DP
If I really wuss out, this Mercer
But I could always still get the Wusthof or Vic if I want to get use to the German-style more.
I did get a chance to hold some knives at William Sonoma. The belly on German knives don't feel natural to me, so a Gyuto-style is more preferred.
Are there anything else in the $60 range I could consider?
Shun Sora
Tojiro Shirogami
Masahiro Gyuto
Tojiro DP
If I really wuss out, this Mercer
But I could always still get the Wusthof or Vic if I want to get use to the German-style more.
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Keith Sinclair
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If willing to spend a little more add Fujiwara FKM to your list. It is mono steel stainless with good grind & rather thin tip. Then get a cheap King stone for around 25.00. Some good free sharpening video's will put you towards sharp knives. Knowing how to put an edge on your nice knife will keep it cutting well.
killerfrenzi
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It's not about having the money in the pocket, but just how much I would want to budget for something. But I did up my budget a little since another $30 would go a long way, so it seems.
Though I'm not entirely sure how what the quality jump is from $40 to $70 is that makes all the other knives at $40 such a poor contender to everyone. So far it seems it's blade thickness, material, and some sort of heritage.
I'm by no means a die-hard cook/knife enthusiast, and there are many accounts that a Victorinox is all I will need. It just happens that I'm not very good with the large belly of that knife and any J-styles at $40 are touted to suck.
I really want to, already stretching the budget. What's the big difference between the FKM and Tojiro?
What's the likely hood of messing up my knife when I'm learning?
Well there really is no true "gyuto" available for 40 dollars. Its not about blade thickness and material, its just that what you want doesnt exist.
Im not sure how you came up with your budget of $40, but its not in the ballpark of what youre looking for.... its like going to a Mercedes dealership and asking what you can get for $1000.
killerfrenzi
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$40 budget comes from Victorinox being a highly recommended blade.
I wasn't expecting gyutos to be the Mercedes of the chef knife world. My mistake, but I wouldn't have accepted that without confirming with you guys.
I also forgot about honing rods and cutting boards. what would be a good accompaniment to the FKM/DP?
Well youre talking about handmade knives here, vs mass produced , factory made knives from western manufacturers .
Dont need a honing rod for a j-knife, its bad for the blade, just keep it touched up on a 6000. Any kind of soft wood is good for a cutting board.
I have been following this thread, and there are some very good points made here. I would like to add the following:
Cheap mass produced kitchen knives are usually made of inferior materials, with almost no intention of providing a long lasting service life in your kitchen. They are mostly ugly and stick out like a sour thumb in any kitchen. They do not hold their edge for very long, and are usually tricky if not altogether impossible to re-sharpen properly. It all translates to an unpleasant cutting and maintenance experience for the owner.
The industry that makes these sub-par kitchen knives, spewing them out across the globe, is an extremely polluting industry, both in terms of the manufacturing process, and later on, disposal by the consumers. Many of these knives contain a fair amount of plastics and other materials that are not bio degradable and extremely harmful to the environment. I suspect some of the cheaper knives are that cheap in part because they are manufactured in sweat-shop conditions i.e. you are paying your money to someone who is abusing worker safety and employment rights - How concerned can someone like that be with your safety? your cutting experience? your ease of maintenance? If you can live with that - that is fine. But you should be aware of the more sinister factors involved with cheap mass produced products. Finally, the majority of work or home accidents involving a knife are most often caused by these very knives because they are notoriously dull after a short span of use - and dull knives slip and slash.
My advise to you is save your hard earned cash and get a good knife. Ask yourself how many crappy knives you will go through before the aggregate funds invested in them is equal or greater than the cost of a single good knife and a stone that will last you a life time?
:2cents:
Cheap mass produced kitchen knives are usually made of inferior materials, with almost no intention of providing a long lasting service life in your kitchen. They are mostly ugly and stick out like a sour thumb in any kitchen. They do not hold their edge for very long, and are usually tricky if not altogether impossible to re-sharpen properly. It all translates to an unpleasant cutting and maintenance experience for the owner.
The industry that makes these sub-par kitchen knives, spewing them out across the globe, is an extremely polluting industry, both in terms of the manufacturing process, and later on, disposal by the consumers. Many of these knives contain a fair amount of plastics and other materials that are not bio degradable and extremely harmful to the environment. I suspect some of the cheaper knives are that cheap in part because they are manufactured in sweat-shop conditions i.e. you are paying your money to someone who is abusing worker safety and employment rights - How concerned can someone like that be with your safety? your cutting experience? your ease of maintenance? If you can live with that - that is fine. But you should be aware of the more sinister factors involved with cheap mass produced products. Finally, the majority of work or home accidents involving a knife are most often caused by these very knives because they are notoriously dull after a short span of use - and dull knives slip and slash.
My advise to you is save your hard earned cash and get a good knife. Ask yourself how many crappy knives you will go through before the aggregate funds invested in them is equal or greater than the cost of a single good knife and a stone that will last you a life time?
:2cents:
rick alen
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You can find "new old-stock" sabatiers on ebay for under $40.
The clunky Vic/nsf handle is easy to fix with a dremel and drum sander attachment.
The BST route is still your best option for a decent knife.
Or buy the Tramotinas for $12 bucks and use those till you can afford soemthing better.
The clunky Vic/nsf handle is easy to fix with a dremel and drum sander attachment.
The BST route is still your best option for a decent knife.
Or buy the Tramotinas for $12 bucks and use those till you can afford soemthing better.
I would forget the Tojiro Shirogami. It's the most reactive knife in the world. Your room mates will ruin it for sure. If you can get the Fujiwara FKM from Japanese chef knives. Just a week ago I handled my neighbours santoku and it's a really nice knife. The DP is nice too.
Their difference is that Tojiro has just a little bit better (VG10) steel and the Fujiwara (AUS8) has better handle and F&F.
Their difference is that Tojiro has just a little bit better (VG10) steel and the Fujiwara (AUS8) has better handle and F&F.
I think the heritage is simply because you know the knife will have been produced properly, correctly heated and tempered etc.
A Victorinox is all most people 'need', but life isn't all about need.
It depends how slap dash you are. If you treat a J knife the way I've treated all the previous knives I've ever owned (lobbed in the sink, dumped in the dishwasher, then slung in the draw with all the others), you'll have wasted your money, but if you treat it the way I'm treating my new J knife (like a god) it will be fine. My wife isn't so keen on being gentle with the knife, so I've bought a Vnox for her.
The Vnox (like all western knives) is softer steel and a different beast to a J knife, and the Vnox is one of the (if not the) best bang for buck chef's knife. If you want a reasonable J knife, it will cost a bit more than a Vnox, but then it will have its benefits.
Maybe think of it like this - instead of brands of cars, think of types of cars - so maybe western knives are saloon cars, and J knives are sports cars - you can get a decent saloon for less money than a decent sports car. You can get a cheap sports car (or a cheap J knife), but it's not easy to make a cheap sports car (or J knife) properly.
You want sharpening stones rather than a honing rod. So with a western knife, the steel is a bit softer and the edge rolls off centre as you use it, so you use a honing rod to get it back in line. The honing rod can also remove a little steel, so it gets a light sharpen as well. The harder fine edge of a J knife doesn't move so easily, and also can't be just pushed back so easily, so there's no point using a honing rod. Also, the honing rod wouldn't remove much steel from a hard J knife (unless you include chipping), so it won't sharpen either. Instead you want stones:
Long term you want 3 stones:
For rough sharpening, removing chips, restoring very dull blades (say 200 - 500 grit) - you won't need this for ages.
For normal sharpening, stones from 700 to 2000 grit.
To take off the fine scratches and the burr left by coarser stones, and to polish the surface, you can use stones starting at around 2000 grit.
An affordable option would be the King 1000 / 6000 combination stone. So it's two stones, stuck together, and all you need.
Well said Tsuriu
sharptools
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Salty is completely right here. The FKM is better than the Tojiro in a number of ways. if you can score a cheap Tojiro on BST then great. But if you're going to bump your budget, then you should get the FKM over the Tojiro
killerfrenzi
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Thanks everyone, I'll see what I can get. Also didn't expect to spending on the appropriate cutting board, but it'll be worth it I'm sure. :nicethread:
LifeByA1000Cuts
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@Tsuriru but every kitchen needs cheap knives that you don't care about damaging TOO 
@Tsuriru but every kitchen needs cheap knives that you don't care about damaging TOO
lack of care..... what can I say? :surrendar:
On second thought you are right. Every kitchen needs those. They make great permanent storage fixtures in many a fine drawers in many a fine kitchens Im sure. These are the ones that no one cares about until they slip while trying to open a frozen pack of hamburgers stuck together, then plow into your hand. You are right - obviously every kitchen requires a good medical emergency every so often. :biggrin:
DaveInMesa
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I know better but, the way you phrased that, it sounds like you're saying it would be better to use a high quality knife to pry apart those frozen hamburger patties.
And a lot of people have been overlooking the original intent, which is to buy the best "beater" available for short money because, no matter what he buys, his room/house mates will trash it. In my view, given the circumstances, I think he's actually better off sticking with a German stainless steel knife, because they can take the abuse better than a good j-knife can. He can get a good knife when his living situation changes, and it's safe to do so.
killerfrenzi
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This pretty much. Although I don't think they'll trash my knife, they won't take care of it as much as I would, as the owner. There's also justifying the cost depending how much I cook, and I haven't been able to cook much in the past months.
Then there's also a bit of overhead cost in needing a soft wood board since plastic boards are not ideal for j-knives. Unless I'm wrong, I could use some new advice.
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No, you might as well use a poly board. Pretty much any knife you pick at this price will have durable steel and function just fine with a poly board.
DaveInMesa
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Actually, a soft board is better for ALL knives. Hard j-knives chip if used roughly on hard boards. Softer German knives dull quickly on hard boards.
You are right. I guess what I was trying to say was that if all the roommates pulled together and got a better knife perhaps each user would think twice before destroying it. Perhaps care would be taken to defrost rather than pry, cut on wood rather than glass or ceramic, or stone, etc. It's a win win when folks take care. Care is very important. Kitchen is cleaner, knives are well maintained, food looks better, probably tastes better, folks dont hurt themselves. See my point? This is not about a knife - any kind of knife. It's about a communal effort to follow certain time honored habits that mainly have an upside to them. Of course....it requires that folks "get with the program, and calibrate their expectations" and that is a human prerequisite and has nothing to do with the kitchen or the knife or the cutting board.
DaveInMesa
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DaveInMesa
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You know, that's a good idea. I wonder if they'd be up for it.
killerfrenzi
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they're not as meticulous as I am, so I wouldn't put it on them to take care of it.
LifeByA1000Cuts
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@Tsusiru Prying apart frozen food, cutting very cold or hot (think straight out of the deep fryer or pan!) ingredients, opening packaging,
shaving nuts/chocolate/palm sugar, peeling sandy vegetables, butchery... these are legit kitchen tasks, but are these tasks where you suggest an expensive and delicate knife is in the right place?
shaving nuts/chocolate/palm sugar, peeling sandy vegetables, butchery... these are legit kitchen tasks, but are these tasks where you suggest an expensive and delicate knife is in the right place?
