Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.

[drrayeye]

The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.

I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.



You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.


Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?


Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.

Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?



It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.

Your whole post is argumentative and dismissive--and I'm not about to keep this going. I've already more than suggested some possibilities--I've bought some, reviewed them, and had a collaborator verify my impressions.

There is already some of what I've done in earlier posts on this thread--which is what inspired me to get this far. Chef Panko has already done a ton of objective reviews of Chinese Vegetable cleavers posted on Youtube, and there are more reports by others out there.

 

[esoo]

Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.

Based on my experience the bold part of the quote is a falsehood. I worked for several years for Japanese-born bosses who in the course of business took me out for lunch and dinners. I learned to quickly to distinguish the difference between a true Japanese sushi chef and the rest. Much of the sushi in my local is actually done by Koreans, which while decent enough misses the finesse of the Japanese sushi. The greatest telling point is the rice is never done properly.

 

[tostadas]

The search feature is your friend. There is lots of input on inexpensive cleavers in this forum if you look. Here are just some threads containing my own posts. BTW, I try to provide objective insight wherever possible, such as actual dimensions and measurements, which I believe are very useful when comparing several different knives. Also, yes, I'll say that I have bought a fair number of cleavers, since that seems to be important.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/cleaver-thinning-project.50753/https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-cleaver-analysis-paralysis.47985/post-781959https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/chinese-cleaver-questions.56533/post-863058https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/best-knife-for-high-volume-veg-prep.59501/
I'm more than happy to provide more feedback or try to answer any specific questions regarding one cleaver vs another. However, it's annoying when someone comes on here and starts a rant about there not being information about X, when a simple search will quickly yield plenty of results.


My personal 1min review of the shibazi F208:
It's a fine knife for $30 and will perform perfectly fine in any kitchen. There are a lot of things that I really didn't like about it, hence the "cleaver thinning" thread. If I were to buy another budget cleaver, I would spend the money on something else.

 

[drrayeye]

Based on my experience the bold part of the quote is a falsehood. I worked for several years for Japanese-born bosses who in the course of business took me out for lunch and dinners. I learned to quickly to distinguish the difference between a true Japanese sushi chef and the rest. Much of the sushi in my local is actually done by Koreans, which while decent enough misses the finesse of the Japanese sushi. The greatest telling point is the rice is never done properly.

I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.

Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.

 

[drrayeye]

The search feature is your friend. There is lots of input on inexpensive cleavers in this forum if you look. Here are just some threads containing my own posts. BTW, I try to provide objective insight wherever possible, such as actual dimensions and measurements, which I believe are very useful when comparing several different knives. Also, yes, I'll say that I have bought a fair number of cleavers, since that seems to be important.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/cleaver-thinning-project.50753/https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-cleaver-analysis-paralysis.47985/post-781959https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/chinese-cleaver-questions.56533/post-863058https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/best-knife-for-high-volume-veg-prep.59501/
I'm more than happy to provide more feedback or try to answer any specific questions regarding one cleaver vs another. However, it's annoying when someone comes on here and starts a rant about there not being information about X, when a simple search will quickly yield plenty of results.


My personal 1min review of the shibazi F208:
It's a fine knife for $30 and will perform perfectly fine in any kitchen. There are a lot of things that I really didn't like about it, hence the "cleaver thinning" thread. If I were to buy another budget cleaver, I would spend the money on something else.

Thanks for all the links and your thoughtful reply.

 

[esoo]

I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.

Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.

I suggest you re-review my comment as your desire to defend Chef Panko has you fixated on adding him to a comment to which he was not related.

My simple point was that there are many who work as sushi chefs who have not trained in Japan in refutation of your comment.

 

[kpham12]

I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.

Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.

Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.

 

[drrayeye]

I suggest you re-review my comment as your desire to defend Chef Panko has you fixated on adding him to a comment to which he was not related.

My simple point was that there are many who work as sushi chefs who have not trained in Japan in refutation of your comment.

By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.

 

[esoo]

By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.

As is your response since you clearly have no interest in a discussion.

 

[stringer]

By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.

As a former professional debater I disagree. I would say your dismissal of other's opinions based on nothing but ad hominems probably does more to degrade the friendly nature of the conversation than others giving you their highly educated opinions that you seemed to be asking for.

If this interaction was a waste of time and if engaging in enthusiastic and reasoned arguments about the benefits of various luxury cooking utensils wasn't in some way valuable then this thread, moreover this entire site, wouldn't exist. That is pretty much all we do here. Our raison d'etre.

So look around. Read through the other 17 pages of this thread where we were arguing and debating about this topic for the past couple of years. Or don't. But you aren't going to be having too many mutually beneficial discussions if you don't want to engage in the back and forth. And instead just tell people that their knowledge and experience is worthless hearsay.

 

[drrayeye]

As a former professional debater I disagree. I would say your dismissal of other's opinions based on nothing but ad hominems probably does more to degrade the friendly nature of the conversation than others giving you their highly educated opinions that you seemed to be asking for.

If this interaction was a waste of time and if engaging in enthusiastic and reasoned arguments about the benefits of various luxury cooking utensils wasn't in some way valuable then this thread, moreover this entire site, wouldn't exist. That is pretty much all we do here. Our raison d'etre.

So look around. Read through the other 17 pages of this thread where we were arguing and debating about this topic for the past couple of years. Or don't. But you aren't going to be having too many mutually beneficial discussions if you don't want to engage in the back and forth. And instead just tell people that their knowledge and experience is worthless hearsay.

I've read through the 17 pages when I first posted. There were some interesting posts, though not many "enthusiastic and reasoned arguments"--thankfully. I'm not a philosopher or professional debater. I prefer content. I'll go back to lurking.

 

[cotedupy]

I think there are quite enough factories in China that CCK and Shibazi don't need to share resources tbh. And even if they did, I doubt CCK would have much incentive to lie about it on their own website:

If someone wants to know what steel they use then it's quite easy to email them: [email protected]

Or just give their store in Toronto a call and ask:

 

[drrayeye]

I've seen that website, seen an alleged picture of workers "making the cleavers locally" posted on Chef Knives to Go about five years ago, made side by side CCK comparisons with my Shibazi f208-2 at Action Sales (down the street from my house) learned how the stamped information on each knife indicates marketing source, noticed recent packaging changes, etc. etc. etc.

The "main store" in Hong Kong is just a regular outlet--not even an obvious distributor. Hong Kong is part of China.

The manufacture and distribution of CCK knives details have not been publicly disclosed--nor has the type of steel used in the manufacture.

 

[blokey]

I've seen that website, seen an alleged picture of workers "making the cleavers locally" posted on Chef Knives to Go about five years ago, made side by side CCK comparisons with my Shibazi f208-2 at Action Sales (down the street from my house) learned how the stamped information on each knife indicates marketing source, noticed recent packaging changes, etc. etc. etc.

The "main store" in Hong Kong is just a regular outlet--not even an obvious distributor. Hong Kong is part of China.

The manufacture and distribution of CCK knives details have not been publicly disclosed--nor has the type of steel used in the manufacture.

The main store in Hong Kong is the main distrubutor, their name is literally 陳枝記, there is only one store in HongKong and one in Canada, every CCK sourced otherwise comes from there, include the ones on TaoBao. I have been to the store, they used to manufactured the knives in HongKong before demand exploded, now they manufacture their stuff in Guang Dong (without mention specific cities). The old markings on CCK knives is literally their store address in Hong Kong, indicting they are the only seller.
It is well known in Chinese knife circle that they use SK5/T8 grade of steel, and recently they have gone softer with their heat treatment. It's ok that you don't understand Chinese, you can just contact them, seriously, what's stopping you?

 

[superworrier]

It also says on their website they manufacture their own knives.

 

[drrayeye]

I did a comparison at one point between my CCk and Shibazi f208. They do not share many similarities

I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has much better fit and finish.

 

[drrayeye]

It also says on their website they manufacture their own knives.

but not where--or from whom they get their steel--or even what kind of steel they use. Have you ever seen the color coded handles on any yet--as described on that website?

 

[blokey]

I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has much better fit and finish.

That's because they are both Sang Dao/桑刀, which have a particular profile, Shuang Shi/双狮, Fookee, Tim Leung all make similar profiled knives because that's a traditional knife shape, it's like saying all Usuba are made in the same factory because they share a similar profile.

but not where--or from whom they get their steel--or even what kind of steel they use. Have you ever seen the color coded handles on any yet--as described on that website?

Ask them, I already said Sk5/T8 grade couple times. The color coded handle is sold in their main store and can be found on TaoBao, they don't have much interest in NA so they simply did not import it.
BTW neither did any AliExpress manufacturer discuss where they get their vg10 from.

 

[tostadas]

I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has much better fit and finish.

I guess that depends on your definition of "fit and finish". To me, that refers to

• smoothness of grind
• evenness of grind
• connection between blade and handle
• shape and comfort of handle
• smoothness of transition between parts (ie. wood to ferrule, or ferrule to blade)
• smoothness or sharp edges around spine/choil
• overall straightness

Or stating it another way, how long does it take to bring the knife up to my standard of comfort? The CCK only required a little touch up around spine/choil for it to be comfortable to me. In contrast, I spent hours working on the Shibazi.

How do you define "fit and finish", and how is the Shibazi much better?

 

[superworrier]

A lot of the info on that ChefPanko website is suspect (not trying to say anything about his cooking). For example, he lists white 2 as 5/5 for edge retention, when it's known for low retention. Weirdly, he lists white 1 as 3/5, which is known to have higher retention than white 2 due to higher hardness (in general). He repeats this same trend for blue 1 and 2.

 

[drrayeye]

I guess that depends on your definition of "fit and finish". To me, that refers to

• smoothness of grind
• evenness of grind
• connection between blade and handle
• shape and comfort of handle
• smoothness of transition between parts (ie. wood to ferrule, or ferrule to blade)
• smoothness or sharp edges around spine/choil
• overall straightness

Or stating it another way, how long does it take to bring the knife up to my standard of comfort? The CCK only required a little touch up around spine/choil for it to be comfortable to me. In contrast, I spent hours working on the Shibazi.

How do you define "fit and finish", and how is the Shibazi much better?

I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.

To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.

Then a side by side.

You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.

Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.

Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.

There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.

 

[tostadas]

I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.

To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.

Then a side by side.

You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.

Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.

Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.

There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.

I have several CCKs and really enjoy cleavers, personally owning and have used at least a couple. You clearly have a strong passion for that Panko guy and your Shibazi. I cant argue with your likes. I'll just say, that I feel the Shibazi is a $30 value for a $30 knife. Nothing else I nor anyone else here can say will convince you otherwise. I don't know exactly what your aim is in this thread. But I don't have a desire to continue with this line of discussion.

 

[stringer]

I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.

To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.

Then a side by side.

You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.

Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.

Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.

There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.

Obviously you're not a golfer.

 

[drrayeye]

I have several CCKs and really enjoy cleavers, personally owning and have used at least a couple. You clearly have a strong passion for that Panko guy and your Shibazi. I cant argue with your likes. I'll just say, that I feel the Shibazi is a $30 value for a $30 knife. Nothing else I nor anyone else here can say will convince you otherwise. I don't know exactly what your aim is in this thread. But I don't have a desire to continue with this line of discussion.

It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.

I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.

In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.

It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.

 

[tostadas]

It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.

I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.

In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.

It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.

Ah got it. You're an expert. Definitely far more experienced than everyone else. When is the awards ceremony?

 

[drrayeye]

A lot of the info on that ChefPanko website is suspect (not trying to say anything about his cooking). For example, he lists white 2 as 5/5 for edge retention, when it's known for low retention. Weirdly, he lists white 1 as 3/5, which is known to have higher retention than white 2 due to higher hardness (in general). He repeats this same trend for blue 1 and 2.

I appreciate the honesty and care of Chef Panko, who buys most of the knives he tests--and makes substantive measurements and comparisons. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. He wants the type of observations you are making posted--especially in the context of his overall recomendations. If you look,I think you'll see that Chef Panko often makes very long responses to this kind of comment.

 

[drrayeye]

Obviously you're not a golfer.

Obviously, CCK is not a violin maker.

 

[drrayeye]

That's because they are both Sang Dao/桑刀, which have a particular profile, Shuang Shi/双狮, Fookee, Tim Leung all make similar profiled knives because that's a traditional knife shape, it's like saying all Usuba are made in the same factory because they share a similar profile.

Ask them, I already said Sk5/T8 grade couple times. The color coded handle is sold in their main store and can be found on TaoBao, they don't have much interest in NA so they simply did not import it.
BTW neither did any AliExpress manufacturer discuss where they get their vg10 from.

I like lots of your comments--and I've learned a great deal. I just have a very different perspective.

 

[blokey]

It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.

I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.

In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.

It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.

How is 8cr13mov, 4cr13 and sk5/t8 the same steel? The most popular carbon steel in mainland China is 65mn, I never seen anyone use sk series aside from Hong Kong manufacturers. If you mean made in the same place as they are made in Guang Dong then yes, that place has more population than most European countries. If you been to Taiwan then you should know 六協 and 菜刀王 are far more popular than both in professional and home settings. But of course they probably look the same to you and you assume they are made in the same place.

I appreciate the honesty and care of Chef Panko, who buys most of the knives he tests--and makes substantive measurements and comparisons. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. He wants the type of observations you are making posted--especially in the context of his overall recomendations. If you look,I think you'll see that Chef Panko often makes very long responses to this kind of comment.

That did not mean anything, Ryky probably handle more knives than most members here and he is still a joke. His response often comes to vague conclusions and did not response to some of the mistakes people point out like hardness and wear resistance, his confusion of steel types.

 

[blokey]

I like lots of your comments--and I've learned a great deal. I just have a very different perspective.

This has nothing to do with perspective, CCK and ShiBaZi does not share a factory, in fact ShiBaZi does not share factory with anyother brand apart from their sub brand like Xuan Fu Ren/选夫人. It's just weird to me you clearly does not know anything regarding Chinese knife industry apart from couple unreliable YouTubers, yet insist your conclusion, your only contact seems to be a "Japanese collaborator" whereas many people in the forum have or had direct contact with the maker.