Belgian Blue Whetstone

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@milangravier - How do the edges differ? Or are they more or less similar, and the different finishes are more for the visual aspects?

(sorry, complete newbie, trying to understand...)
Belgium blue and Belgium yellow coticule will give same type of edge because they are same type of stone. Belgium blue will be a little coarser being something like 2k/4k (depending of the way you use it), Yellow coticule will be finer grit so more refined edges, about 5k/8k (depend how you use it).
Maruo shiro suita is about 6k/8k but being a very different stone. Bonding and type of abrasive is different. So you will get a more clean and refine edge.
That's why I am sharpening on yellow coticule : you get quite a refine edge but it is far more agressive (I think because of the garnets) than a Jnat in the same grit.
 

captaincaed

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@milangravie do you still find any larger, two layer coticule in France? I started using a blue for edges about a year ago, and I've wanted to find a combination stone ever since. Hard to find in the US.

Thank you for the pro opinions and pictures, it's really cool to see the direct comparison to Japanese stones.
 

HumbleHomeCook

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@milangravie do you still find any larger, two layer coticule in France? I started using a blue for edges about a year ago, and I've wanted to find a combination stone ever since. Hard to find in the US.

Thank you for the pro opinions and pictures, it's really cool to see the direct comparison to Japanese stones.

Is this what you're after?


EDIT: Never mind, I thought that was a Blue and Coticule combo but I was wrong.
 

deltaplex

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@milangravie do you still find any larger, two layer coticule in France? I started using a blue for edges about a year ago, and I've wanted to find a combination stone ever since. Hard to find in the US.

Thank you for the pro opinions and pictures, it's really cool to see the direct comparison to Japanese stones.
I regularly see ~7x2" or larger natural combos on auction sites, just matters how the price ends up. If you look regularly you can find one that's at or below what it would cost you from A-C/Etsy/US based vendor.
 

cotedupy

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All very interesting to hear and see people's experiences!

I'm going to offer a slightly different take though. I've only had 8 or 10 CotixBBW stones, so I'm sure others have more experience, but here are my general impressions (perhaps 'generalisations'). FWIW - most of the stones I've had have been natural combis, maybe other BBW can differ (?)

---

Yellow coticule has more variation than BBW. I have a yellow coti that is notably coarser than any BBW I've had, and another that's finer than any of them. But as an average I think they're actually quite similar. BBW will finish a razor pretty happily.

Yellow coticule is generally quicker than BBW. You do get some very slow yellow stones, but more often than not BBW is slower for sharpening. Both stones I'd consider quite quick in comparison to most jnats I've tried at a similar level.

While I'm sure that the speed is in part to do with the amount of abrasive garnet in the stone, I'm also certain it's to do with the shape. If you look at how aggressive and deep a jigane scrath pattern off yellow coticule is compared to BBW you can see this quite clearly. As a substance BBW is more argillite or slate-like; the particles in it are more rounded I think, and it makes it a better polishing stone than the yellow.

---

Here's a quick jigane comparison I did recently off two sides of the same stone. These deeper scratches on the yellow side haven't come from having finer abrasive (obviously), or more abrasive, it's come from pointier, sharper abrasive. And I reckon that's what makes them quicker.

Yellow:

IMG-7039.jpg


Blue:

IMG-7040.jpg



---

Anyhoo... that was all just speculation really! Here's another little look at the Maz polish from my original post. I think BBW is a pretty classy kasumi stone :).

IMG-7792 (1).jpg



 

cotedupy

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@milangravie do you still find any larger, two layer coticule in France? I started using a blue for edges about a year ago, and I've wanted to find a combination stone ever since. Hard to find in the US.

Thank you for the pro opinions and pictures, it's really cool to see the direct comparison to Japanese stones.

You wanna come to Aus mate! This is the other side of the BBW stone I was using here:10 x 2.5" of (probably) La Veinette. Twenty of your finest Australian dollars earlier this year :)

IMG-7779.JPG



The coticule side of this stone is just extraordinary, and perhaps the most perplexing whetstone I have. It's pretty much the finest finishing coti I've ever used, and it's certainly the fastest. Lots of them are quite quick, but this will do material removal like a Washita or sub 1k synth, while leaving an edge in high 1000s.

I really don't understand what's going on with it tbh. I'll make a video sometime - it's quite impressive to see!
 

esoo

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Here's a combo that I got PIF'ed when I was getting into straights.
20220512_124113.jpg


Never really focussed on trying to get an edge off it yet. The few times I've tried I've always felt that I've done better on synths, but that may be inexperience talking.
 

captaincaed

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You wanna come to Aus mate! This is the other side of the BBW stone I was using here:10 x 2.5" of (probably) La Veinette. Twenty of your finest Australian dollars earlier this year :)

View attachment 179243


The coticule side of this stone is just extraordinary, and perhaps the most perplexing whetstone I have. It's pretty much the finest finishing coti I've ever used, and it's certainly the fastest. Lots of them are quite quick, but this will do material removal like a Washita or sub 1k synth, while leaving an edge in high 1000s.

I really don't understand what's going on with it tbh. I'll make a video sometime - it's quite impressive to see!
How many ways can I say "I hate you"

🥰🥰🥰

I think the US is just getting a bit picked over tbh. Keep seeing good stuff in the other crown colonies.
 

Benuser

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Twenty AUD...
For those interested in using BB for sharpening: to my great surprise it was no problem at all to jump from a Shapton Glass 320 to the Belgian Blue as a final stone, and it didn't take more time than with a single next synthetic stone in a much longer progression.
Concerning deburring: ended the sharpening of a Tojiro DP — VG-10 —after the Naniwa Pro 800 successfully with longitudinal strokes on Belgian Blue. I normally use at least two finer synthetics. Again, it's the absence of aggressivity of the almost round garnets: just enough to catch a burr, not enough to create a new one, the common nightmare, even with the lightest touch.
 

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I have never taken a shine to the BB but it might just be because I don't really have one suitable for knife work. I have a few natural combos but they are really razor hone in size. I did notice that one is soft, one middleing and one hard. I think I will lap and see what I come up with.
 

cotedupy

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How many ways can I say "I hate you"

🥰🥰🥰

I think the US is just getting a bit picked over tbh. Keep seeing good stuff in the other crown colonies.

Coming from the man who can't leave the house without tripping over another Pike Washita, or stubbing his toe on a Lily White! ;).

But yeah - it is a fairly happy hunting place here for nice old stones, and certainly in part because there are just fewer people interested in them. The three cotis I have atm, are all bench size natural combis, and for each of them I was the only bidder. $50 in total I think. All good stones, but that massive one is just something else, I don't know anything else like it, it swarfs up like an SG500.

The slight downside being that people seemed to use them mostly for tools, and they tend to be quite dished / beaten up, especially on the coticule side. I actually found another slightly smaller one yesterday where the coti had been almost completely worn through:

IMG-7786.JPG
 

cotedupy

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it's the absence of aggressivity of the almost round garnets


Is this accepted wisdom with regards to BBW then? When I said the same above, that was just hunch from using them, and comparing the difference against how I felt yellow coticule was cutting. I'm sure the yellow does have a higher proportion of garnets in it too as people say, but they certainly seem sharper to me too, and why I prefer BBW for aesthetic finishing.
 
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I was thinning a knife today so I gave it a polish with my BBW.
The Damascus cladding popped out nicely. I gave the whole knives a bit of garnet love and I like the finish. I had to even out the finish with a bit of 1200 wet n dry

Original
IMG20220512123913.jpg
IMG20220512123920.jpg


During King 320
IMG20220512132931.jpg


After garnet's over the whole thing
IMG20220513102106.jpg


After evening the polish with 1200 wet n dry (I cover the sandpaper in 800 slurry and smear away)
IMG20220513115715.jpg
IMG20220513115545.jpg

IMG20220513115743.jpg


Sharpened it with a Washita and finished on a Turkish
IMG20220513102929.jpg
 

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captaincaed

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Coming from the man who can't leave the house without tripping over another Pike Washita, or stubbing his toe on a Lily White! ;).
Two stones! Slander, slander I say!

Naw it’s true I’ve had some good fortune recently and I’m grateful for it. I’m actually starting to turn a few back into the wild.

I’ve been using the Llyn Myrellen (can’t remember how to spell it) in the kitchen recently, and liking what I see so far. Getting some good edges giving no-hesitation bite with tomatoes
 

Benuser

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Is this accepted wisdom with regards to BBW then? When I said the same above, that was just hunch from using them, and comparing the difference against how I felt yellow coticule was cutting. I'm sure the yellow does have a higher proportion of garnets in it too as people say, but they certainly seem sharper to me too, and why I prefer BBW for aesthetic finishing.
The difference between BB and Coticule is not only in the amount of garnets, but as well in the matrix — slate vs. clay — allowing much faster freeing of the garnets in the case of the Coticule. I happen to have a small soft one which allows me to make a thick paste full of unbroken garnets: it eats steel. Even an abrasion resistant soft stainless like Victorinox SAK. The unbroken garnets have a grit in the 20 micron size, equivalent to a JIS 800. With BB, you never get them unbroken.
 

cotedupy

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Two stones! Slander, slander I say!

Naw it’s true I’ve had some good fortune recently and I’m grateful for it. I’m actually starting to turn a few back into the wild.

I’ve been using the Llyn Myrellen (can’t remember how to spell it) in the kitchen recently, and liking what I see so far. Getting some good edges giving no-hesitation bite with tomatoes


It was an interesting stone that one wasn't it. I assume it was a Welsh Llyn Melynllyn (;)) type slate. Though it was certainly coarser and more knife-suitable than some of them seem to be. Big old chunk of rock too!
 

musicman980

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You wanna come to Aus mate! This is the other side of the BBW stone I was using here:10 x 2.5" of (probably) La Veinette. Twenty of your finest Australian dollars earlier this year :)

View attachment 179243


The coticule side of this stone is just extraordinary, and perhaps the most perplexing whetstone I have. It's pretty much the finest finishing coti I've ever used, and it's certainly the fastest. Lots of them are quite quick, but this will do material removal like a Washita or sub 1k synth, while leaving an edge in high 1000s.

I really don't understand what's going on with it tbh. I'll make a video sometime - it's quite impressive to see!
That looks so creamy, side pics??
 

cotedupy

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That looks so creamy, side pics??


Yeah very creamy both in colour and feel in use, but then it's absurdly quick as soon as you put a blade on it.

Here are a couple of shots from a just after I'd cleaned it up when I got. I've flattened it a bit since then, but it's still slightly dished / 'V' Shape. I basically have 5 inches flat from either end now, meeting in the middle, so I can work the ends to even it over time.

From reading through G&H4 I suspected it might be La Veinette, and then saw on B&B that everybody loved LaV, which would make sense as this is a truly remarkable stone. A couple of experts there said I was probably right, but couldn't say with 100% certainty. Dunno what you reckon? You know your way round a coticule I believe...


IMG-4243.JPG



IMG-4361.JPG
 

simona

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@milangravie do you still find any larger, two layer coticule in France? I started using a blue for edges about a year ago, and I've wanted to find a combination stone ever since. Hard to find in the US.

Thank you for the pro opinions and pictures, it's really cool to see the direct comparison to Japanese stones.
Have bought a knife from this company - super quick service.
 

simona

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Serious, very serious guys and gals.
Indeed. I have also used this company, another group of, as you say, serious folk.
 

simona

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Indeed. I have also used this company, another group of, as you say, serious folk.
Super helpful, fast service, shopping guarantee, great advice.
 

cotedupy

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I hate this thread 😉

It's making me think that I need a Coticule and a Belgian Blue.

Or maybe three.

@cotedupy Where does one find these amazing deals on cotis in Au?

Haha... the three big natural combis I've kept atm have all actually been Aus ebay. Though I would have to strongly advise against looking there, as I quite enjoy having the place to myself ;).

Salvage yards and antiques shops are good too, especially if you can befriend the owner. There's a very nice guy in Adelaide who sells vintage tools and stuff, and has found me some amazing stones. Same day I received that big coti above I popped into his shop later, and got a 10" Yellow-Green Thuringian for a fiver (!)

Whatever way - you should definitely try to pick one up sometime. The combination of Coticule and Belgian Blue is an extremely good kitchen knife stone. Quite why people insist on thinking of them as razor stones is beyond me; they have to use all sorts of wizardry, slurry breakdown, and dilution techniques to get a half decent razor edge, while for knives they're just perfect as is.
 
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