Best Guided system for new guy

[Simon T]

Hey.
Sorry I posted about guides, but looking at reviews, some can scratch and also damage the stone.
I seen the wedges which seem a little better, but yo are left free handing one you have left the wedge.

What other guided cheap systems are there so I can get the hang of free handing?

Thanks all

 

[Caleb Cox]

The Edge Pro Apex model is cheapest guided stone system that I'd recommend. You won't learn freehand technique, but you will learn some about feedback, burr formation, etc. Any true angle guidance besides the wedge/stack of pennies is going to be too much of a crutch to allow you to learn.

 

[JoeWheels]

Agree with Caleb.
Edge Pro Apex is a good system that will teach you a lot about sharpening overall.
The translation to freehand sharpening from EP is fairly direct.

 

[Simon T]

Thanks all.
Apex is quite expensive. I will probably just keep freehanding on my old knives until I get the hang of it.

Most youtube videos that try show you are very poor as its hard to gauge the angle on a video

 

[Corradobrit1]

Thanks all.
Apex is quite expensive. I will probably just keep freehanding on my old knives until I get the hang of it.

Most youtube videos that try show you are very poor as its hard to gauge the angle on a video

And pressure and when its applied

 

[suntravel]

Best cheap one for bench stones is the Warthog, but really good ones are more expensive...

.. and only done by yourself or from makers in russia like Bogdan

http://warthogusa.com/product/multi-edge/

Regards

Uwe

 

[zoze]

Got mine from this suntravel guy.

 

[suntravel]

Got mine from this suntravel guy.

Yeah you are one from the chosen few

Regards

Uwe

 

[slickmamba]

Just practice freehanding, it doens't take long to get used to it

 

[KingShapton]

Just practice freehanding, it doens't take long to get used to it

+1

 

[Benuser]

Better get a cheap thin carbon knife, a good loupe (6-10x) and a marker instead. For the knife I would suggest a simple Robert Herder. Cut a few wine corks with an inclination that corresponds to commonly used angles, for reference.
Blades sharpened with jig systems I've seen invariably had nice edges, protruding shoulders and got far too thick behind the edge. Great edges, poor cutters.

 

[Eloh]

Blades sharpened with jig systems I've seen invariably had nice edges, protruding shoulders and got far too thick behind the edge. Great edges, poor cutters.

.. Wich has nothing to do with the jig itself obviously, just with the fact that the ones you saw didn't do a good job of utilizing it.

You can do the same thinning procedure you would do without it and just using it to make a microbevel, as tiny as possible, wich is the way it should be used.

Just mentioning it because these things get miss characterized on here all the time.
A good jig is just a tool. You still need to know how to use it in the most effective way.
If you don't thin your knife when you need to that doesn't have anything to do with the tools you use just with a lack of knowledge and technique.
Wich is why I wouldn't recommend them to beginners anyway, rather to people who already are decent freehand sharpeners who feel a need to optimize their personal sharpening procedure.

 

[Benuser]

You can do the same thinning procedure you would do without it and just using it to make a microbevel, as tiny as possible, wich is the way it should be used.

IIRC, the minimal angle on one of the EPs was 6°. Not the kind of thinning I'm used to.

 

[suntravel]

EP is not the only jig system, the one I use starts from 0° and could also set up for convex grinds between two angles...

... but for thinning I also prefer freehand, jig only for the bevel.

Regards

Uwe

 

[Eloh]

IIRC, the minimal angle on one of the EPs was 6°. Not the kind of thinning I'm used to.

Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.

Ps
I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it can be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results

 

[Benuser]

Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.

Ps
I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it can be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results

Thanks for clarifying! Makes a lot of sense. A beginner shouldn't start with a system before getting the basics, i.e. raising a burr, chasing it and getting rid of it, by hand.

 

[Benuser]

Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.

Ps
I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it can be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results

On a side note: @Eloh, how do you find an angle on the Dickoron Micro? Just curious, as I find it easily on leather, stones, cardboard, you name it. But with the Micro I find it hard, unless the edge has already some damage.

 

[suntravel]

No need to find the perfect angle with a fine steel like Dick Micro, just a bit steeper than grinding, bang bang, and it will be sharp...

... it is almost non abrasive.

For the good freehand sharpener it should be no prob estimating the right angle in no time

The better pro chefs i know are doing about 10 strokes/s on a steel, even the ones sharpening with a jig

Regards

Uwe

 

[rob]

If you want to use a jig system i would recommend the Spyderco Sharpmaker.
I don't see it mentioned here often. They are pretty cheap and IMO work quite well (used one for years on folding and kitchen knives) You can even adjust your angle to suit sharpening the tip.

 

[Eloh]

What suntravel said. The surface is super fine on a dick micro, so you can't do so much wrong, unless you are banging your edge too hard against it.

Obviously it works better the tougher and softer the blade material. I usually use it on my Solingen beater and rarely use it on harder blades unless it's hectic at work.

 

[Benuser]

Thanks guys!

 

[mack]

I am using a Bogdan with pressure control for putting a microbevel on my knives.

For instance, I bought a Takamura Migaki R2 Petty for my wife.

As most of us know, those knives come with 9° angle on each side, which is way too flat to use in European (and I guess American) kitchens.

Out of the box, the edge looks like that:

After one minute of work (10 strokes each side on a Naniwa Professional 5K, afterwards 3/2/1 on each side) I got a perfect microbevel, which is enough to make the Takamura ready to use:

I wouldn't be able to do that freehand with the same quality, that's why I love my Bogdan.

Mack.

 

[Nemo]

I'm guessing that you want a method of maintaining your angle while freehanding rather than looking for a fully guided jig system?

I found Jon's videos on how to jold a knife while sharpening particulaly useful here. Indeed, most of his sharpening series is useful in one way or another:



The fully guided jig systems can teach a lot about edge formation whilst eliminating the issue of maintaining an angle. Honestly, maintaining an angle is not that difficult when you actually get down to it. If you really need a visual aid, make some wedges out of cardboard at your favourite angles (use a protractor).

Or you can use trigonometry: If you lay the blade flat on the stone and then raise the spine by half of its height, you have made a 30* angle.
1/3 gives about 20*
1/4 gives around 16*
1/5 gives aroun 11*
1/6 gives around 9*


The proponents of guided systems (especially the Bogdan) will say that it allows then to use a fine stone under light pressure, thus allowing a very keen and long- lasting edge. They may be correct and this may be useful in the high volume professional setting but I feel that I can make my knives plenty sharp with decent edge retention for normal kitchen use by freehanding.

The downside of guided jigs is that they are often not good for maintaining the blade geometry (including thinning) which is, in my view at least as important as the edge in determining the overall cutting performance of the knife.

 

[Bolek]

What Bogdan is ?

 

[Nemo]

Bagdan is a guided sharpening sysrem which holds the blade at a particular angle.

 

[Benuser]

When I started I made a few corks cut with an inclination that corresponds to commonly used angles, for reference.

 

[Eloh]

The downside of guided jigs is that they are often not good for maintaining the blade geometry (including thinning) which is, in my view at least as important as the edge in determining the overall cutting performance of the knife.

I don't know if I would call it a downside. Its simply not what I would use it for. I wouldn't use it for applying a Kasumi finish either for example
Its just a tool wich can do some things better than a human could, holding the angle and pressure control.

Edit
The consensus of those who use these is that its best used for setting and touching up small bevels. The resulting bevels are more stable and lead to better edge retention than freehand sharpening could, especially with higher alloyed steels.

Is it worth it? Probably not, depending on your level of nerdiness, but if you already have stones for hundreds or even thousands of dollars I would definately also think about getting a guided system for optimizing results in a way that new stones couldn't

 

[Nemo]

I don't know if I would call it a downside. Its simply not what I would use it for. I wouldn't use it for applying a Kasumi finish either for example
Its just a tool wich can do some things better than a human could, holding the angle and pressure control.

Sure, but then the downside is that you need two seperate sharpening setups to maintain your knife, so it becomes less convenient.

It will essentially comes down to whether YOUR freehanding edge is adequate for YOUR use. If it isn't, you may want to consider a guided system for maintaining the very edge and developing a freehand technique to maintain the blade and accept the pfaffing around that goes with moving from one to the other. I've certainly considered using the Bogdan just out of curiosity, but my freehand edges are fine in my home kitchen. YMMV, especially if you work in a high volume prep envirommet and you find that the reports of increased edge retention with the Bogdan system are substatiated.

Guided systems are not going to work as well with sharpening approaches such as convex, although I guess they could put a microbevel on at the end.

FWIW, I have an EP Apex which is a good little device that taught me a lot about edges and gave me the confidence to start freehand sharpening. I no longer use it because:
1) It takes longer. Especially if I am sharpening each side at different angles.
2) It can't deal with some of my knives which I sharpen convex.
3) It doesn't deal with thinning, which I incorporate into every sharpening session that involves a medium or coarser stone.
4) I kinda get a kick out of freehand sharpening.

Once again, YMMV.

 

[Eloh]

It will essentially comes down to whether YOUR freehanding edge is adequate for YOUR use.

Completely agreed, I don't even want to convince anybody to use a jig either. It's just that everytime the topic comes up the same misconceptions gets spread like "you end up with a wedge monster" or whatever.

 

[Oui Chef]

Is it worth it? Probably not, depending on your level of nerdiness, but if you already have stones for hundreds or even thousands of dollars I would definately also Think about getting a guided system for optimizing results in a way that new stones couldn't

This is the best argument I've heard for using a jig.
Still using a jig to me would be like spending an hour running on a treadmill in a gym instead of running on the beach that I live nearby to. If I wanted to systematically improve my running speed and time, track metrics etc I'm sure a treadmill is optimal and more consistent. But I don't run with the end goal of being a good runner at all. I just do it because it feels good. And I'm a **** sharpener for sure compared to most people here, but I do it freehand because it feels good. Its an activity and experience in and of itself. For those that are absorbed by the act of pulling their stone out of the bucket or splashing it with water, feeling the new edge settle after a few passes, hearing the metal change shape, with your hands connecting your mind to the edge on the stone, probably nothing could be worse than sterilising the process with a jig. And the ones that spend thousands on stones are probably the ones most absorbed by this act/art/connection of hands, metal and stone

I know thats some pretentious bs but. If there wasn't more to the experience or act of sharpening than meets the eye there wouldn't be a bunch of us hanging around here talking about it