Best stones for a beginner (who doesn't want to buy new ones in six months :)

[Grunt173]

My Shapton Pro 320 works just fine when I need to use it and is much cheaper then the Cho 400. I still like using one of the first stones I bought and that is the Suehiro Rika 5000. I often use it as my final stone and seldom use my Kitty 8000.The Kitty is a great stone though. One thing I do agree on,don't wait to get a flattener,you will need one right from the start. I think I would toss in a Shapton Pro 1000 too,but of all the Shapton Pros,my 2000 is my favorite.When I sharpen my stainless,it is my finishing stone that give my edge the perfect bite. For a stone holder,even though I have a manufactured one,I often still grab a wood 2x4 with a wet micro towel draped over it for my stone holder,cheap and works just fine.I even made a sink bridge out of 2x4's which saved me a bunch of money. If you buy Shapton Pros,the box they come in serves as your stone holder.

 

[galvaude]

The more experienced I get and the more I find myself not using many stones after the 1k level. Most of the time I just stop at ±1000 and that's it. If your knife is thin and has a good profile it is plenty.

Any 1k from most well know manufacturers will do. I would recommend you start with an agressive 1k stone as your only stone, something like a Shapton Pro 1k, Chosera 800 or Bester 1000 and learn on it and master it. Don't mess with polishing stones while developping your skills. After that get a good coarse stone.

Edit :
I'm also canadian. For shapton go with Fendrihan, they carry Shapton Glass and Pro in every grit (free shipping on orders over $50). For Naniwa, Paul's Finest is the place to go and he ships very fast. If you want cheaper, Lee Valley carry King (King 1200x is amazing), Bester and Sigma Power.

 

[HRC_64]

Alternatively, a good 2/3k can really keep you
off the 1k for a while if edge is well setup.

 

[inferno]

So... After way too many hours reading and researching here is where i'm at right now. I'm trying to buy from Canadian retailers to avoid unexpected taxes and duties. So far, here's what I'm looking at for a three stone set. As stated before, these stones will be used on an old 4-star Henckels, a Yoshikane SKD Santoku and a Yu Kurosaki Shizuku R2 Gyuto.

Coarse stone: Naniwa pro 400 unless Shapton pro 320 would be as good for way less(but do I need a coarse stone right now?)

Medium: Naniwa pro 1000 (or would the 800 be better?) or Sigma power select II 1000 and curious about the Konosuke Sakura 1000 (anyone heard of it?)

Fine: Hesitating between Suehiro Rika 5000, Imanishi Arashiyama 6000 or Imanishi Kitayama 8000 (or are these two the same? After much reading, it's still unclear to me.)

A couple more questions:

Do I need to use an Atoma on the stones before even using them or can I wait to order one when my stones have dished a little?

How bad do I need a stone holder?

Any thoughts?

Many thanks!

I would get the shapton pro over chosera 1k, and i have both.
for those knoves you have anything over lets say 3-4k grit is just wasted. I have a kurosaki in R2 too. And I feel even my 4k glass is waste of time on it when the 2k glass gets so close. But hey its your money.
Maybe a 3k glass would be the optimal finishing grit for r2? who knows?

I can tell you one thing though. get a fast cutting aggressive stone (like the white shapton glass). because r2 is very slow to grind/sharpen.

The shapton pro 320 and 1500 is formulated for carbon steel only and will glaze over and lose cutting power very very quickly on stainless.

if you are getting your atoma from the same shop as the rest of the stones get them at the same time imo. to save on shipping. Also get a rubber stone holder!

I have noticed at around 6k most steels start losing its "bite", they start hesitating on some vegetables. so a 2-4k is my preferred finishers for stainless at least. no need to go above that imo.

I'd rather have a 1k, a 2k, a 3k and a 4k than a 1k a 5k and an 8. Strongly diminishing returns above 2k.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I would recommend you start with an agressive 1k stone as your only stone, something like a Shapton Pro 1k, Chosera 800 or Bester 1000 and learn on it and master it. Don't mess with polishing stones while developping your skills. After that get a good coarse stone.

I am, indeed, starting to think that I should build my set one stone at a time as I've never sharpened a knife before.

Alternatively, a good 2/3k can really keep you
off the 1k for a while if edge is well setup.

I'm not sure I get what you mean. Do you think that if my edge isn't too dull I could just do touch ups on a 2/3k stone?

I would get the shapton pro over chosera 1k, and i have both.
for those knoves you have anything over lets say 3-4k grit is just wasted. I have a kurosaki in R2 too. And I feel even my 4k glass is waste of time on it when the 2k glass gets so close. But hey its your money.
Maybe a 3k glass would be the optimal finishing grit for r2? who knows?

I can tell you one thing though. get a fast cutting aggressive stone (like the white shapton glass). because r2 is very slow to grind/sharpen.

I'm curious, do you have the Megumi or the Shizuku?

I'm hesitating a bit about buying a very agressive stone at first since I don't wanna ruin my knives while practicing but maybe I have it all wrong. I'll probably end up buying a 1000 grit stone (still have to decide on which one) to start with and an atoma 140 and see where this gets me.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Doug8066]

By now you will probably be getting bewildered. I would be.
Let me add my own advice/experience. Living in New Zealand I have been through this hassle of buying from overseas too.
How about Norton Waterstones. 1000, 4000, 8000 and as a finishing stone - spoil yourself with one or two of these:- Naniwa Superstone 10,000, Shapton Pro 15,000 or GlassStone 15,000. And but a hunk of good leather and either Cr0 green powder or Diamond paste 0.5 microns to strop the edge after the stones.
The Norton stones I have found to be very good, but the 8,000 is nearer a 5,000 in grit size.
The final stropping is critical. Ouch! Soooo sharp

 

[HRC_64]

I'm not sure I get what you mean. Do you think that if my edge isn't too dull I could just do touch ups on a 2/3k stone?

Keep in mid this assumes you can get the knife "setup" on the 300 (bevels) and 1k (edge) first.

 

[Grunt173]

"I'd rather have a 1k, a 2k, a 3k and a 4k than a 1k a 5k and an 8. Strongly diminishing returns above 2k"

I approve this message.

 

[inferno]

I am, indeed, starting to think that I should build my set one stone at a time as I've never sharpened a knife before.

I'm not sure I get what you mean. Do you think that if my edge isn't too dull I could just do touch ups on a 2/3k stone?


I'm curious, do you have the Megumi or the Shizuku?

I'm hesitating a bit about buying a very agressive stone at first since I don't wanna ruin my knives while practicing but maybe I have it all wrong. I'll probably end up buying a 1000 grit stone (still have to decide on which one) to start with and an atoma 140 and see where this gets me.

Thanks for all the help!

i have the baseless newer "naniwa professional stone".
The shaptons are just faster cutting stones than many other brands. I wouldn't worry about ruining the knives. It still takes a long time to sharpen r2 for instance (relatively speaking). I have the 12k pro and even those cut very fast, where other brands stones just polish here.

The 1000 stone will be one of your most used stones. This is where it all starts. All little chips and damages will be handled by that stone. I would like to recommend the glass 1000 but since this will be a high use/wear stone I suggest the shapton pro instead, it simply has more material.

Now for stones above this grit you can get the thinner glass stones since these will last a lifetime anyway.

The 2k glass is very good, and so is the pro 2k. I have both of these and its hard to say which one I like better. They are both as good as it gets imo. This is also the finishing stone for most stainless for me and my customers. It creates sharp and aggressive cutting edges.

I think the 1k range is too low to finish on, its basically a saw the 2k is not.

Or get the 3k I have heard from several people that this is their preferred finisher on SS, and it seems pretty optimal for that imo.

The glass 4k gets sharper than the 2k and puts on a better polish. But its still no real polish its just more shiny, its still hazy.
Its also much much slower than any of the 2k stones. And for most stainless this edge its just a waste of time to put on there. They can simply not hold this edge for very long, (or it wont get any sharper than off a 2k). Carbon like white 1/2 and blue 1/2 can though. And also many, if not all powder SS, but its still borderline imo. 12c27/13c26/aeb-l familiy steels can also utilize this but they dont really hold on to this for very long.

If i were you i would get a diamond stone and then a 1k, and then either a 2k a 3k or a 4k depending on how fast you want to sharpen and what steel you have and expect to get in the future. They are all compromises.

 

[Nemo]

Now for stones above this grit you can get the thinner glass stones since these will last a lifetime anyway.

How do you find the feedback on the glass stones?

 

[ob-gym]

I'm hesitating a bit about buying a very agressive stone at first since I don't wanna ruin my knives while practicing but maybe I have it all wrong. I'll probably end up buying a 1000 grit stone (still have to decide on which one) to start with and an atoma 140 and see where this gets me.

While you WILL chip your knife at some point, and need a coarse stone to fix, there is nothing wrong with just buying a finishing stone to start. I had a Chosera 3000 as my first and only stone for months, which is actually fast enough to fix small chips, and is a great finisher on my R2 steel knife.

Atoma diamond plates are the best/easiest way to flatten, but not the only way. Sandpaper on a kitchen counter or flat sheet of glass/metal will work just fine for like $2.

 

[panda]

shapton pro cuts hella fast but feels like doo-doo. glass series feels much better but nowhere near as fast.
seriously all you need is a chosera 800 to start, dont even need a flattener until later on.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

shapton pro cuts hella fast but feels like doo-doo. glass series feels much better but nowhere near as fast.
seriously all you need is a chosera 800 to start, dont even need a flattener until later on.

The chosera 800 would be a better starting stone than the 1000, you think?

 

[panda]

yes

 

[inferno]

How do you find the feedback on the glass stones?

excellent. But i like hard stones. I'd say the pro and glass feels very similar. I was just putting on a new edge on a vg10 knife with the pro2k. Its kinda dead feeling but its smooth as silk and gets the job done fast.

I think they are both very creamy and smooth above and including 2k, the glass might be slightly less aggressive cutting.
I also have a 6k gray "HC" glass stone. And that one definitely feels different to the regular glass. its about 50% slower cutting and "polishes" like my 12k pro (pros and white glass does not polish at all).
It also feels different, its like there is small dots on it all over where the blade glides smoothly and these are embedded in a slightly not so smooth matrix kinda. or vice versa.
It feels softer than the white glass, but in reality they are the same actual hardness.

The reason I think pro/glass is better than choseras is that 1; they dont need soaking, true splash and go. 2; they wear very slow. 3; very fast cutting. 4; no stone powder slurry is formed on the stone. 5; they dry in minutes. 6; relatively cheap. 7; water seems to like staying on the actual stone.

 

[inferno]

The chosera 800 would be a better starting stone than the 1000, you think?

if you are just getting 1 stone and and 1 diamond stone, I'd say get a 2k. its fast enough to fix chips and fine enough to get stuff sharp. a 1k will not give you sharp edges.

for a 3 stone setup get diamond and a 1k and a 2/3/4k depending what steels you intend to sharpen. cheap non powder SS = 2k

after this you can expand to maybe an 8k (for carbon steel) and a 500.

imo the best diamond stone for knives is the dmt coarse 325. you can go from this one directly to a 2k if you want.
the 325 and the 600 is the only good dmts, the finer ones does not actually create a finer edge. as opposed to common sense.
This is proven with a scanning electron microscope on the blog "science of sharp", the diamond progression

atomas (i have the 400) are better for flattening stones but are so aggressive and destructive on steel that you will need a 500 regular stone just to clean up the destruction (imo).
but yeah they remove metal faster than dmts. Personally I would never put any of my knives even close to an atoma 140 or 150 or whatever it is. lol. no need for that.

the verdict on the choseras is that the 800 cuts/polishes like a 1000 and the 1000 like a 1500. the reason for this that they break down and creates slurry which polishes the edge somewhat.
shapton pro: the 1000 cuts like an 800 and the 2k like a 2k.

the choseras start getting expensive above 1k. and not really worth it.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

if you are just getting 1 stone and and 1 diamond stone, I'd say get a 2k. its fast enough to fix chips and fine enough to get stuff sharp. a 1k will not give you sharp edges.

for a 3 stone setup get diamond and a 1k and a 2/3/4k depending what steels you intend to sharpen. cheap non powder SS = 2k

By the way, the Atoma wouldn't be for my knife but just to flatten my stones. About the Choser

 

[Grunt173]

Tid bit : My Shapton pro 5 k is the deadest stone I have,wish I had never bought it. Riks 5k has been a good stone right from the start. It is better feeling to me and is more like a 4k which leaves my edges with the right amount of teeth.I have other finishing stones which also cost a bit more money then the Rika but the Rika will get her done and be kinder to your wallet.
Only Shapton Pro's I like and still use are my 320, 1k, and 2k. The 2k being a sweetheart of lineup,just love the feel of this stone and the edge it leaves on my stainless.
As mentioned before,I like my Chosera 400,800 and 3k a lot but they are expensive and mine have developed spider web cracks in a short time of use.Some people do not have this issue with their Chos.
The King Hyper 1k is a fantastic stone.I'd have a hard time parting with it.
Also like my JFK synthetic natural stone for finishing as well but it's expensive,a very worthy stone though.
My newly purchased Arashiyama 6k Takenoko is turning out to be another higher grit stone I enjoy but I find I use it sparingly and when I do,it is with light strokes,more like stropping,just to add a little refinement to the teeth if I want to give my arm a shave.You are supposed to laugh there.
I feel you will need a flattening plate right from the start,some say no but my findings are that some stones have a top layer crust on them or are not completely flat to my liking so I use my Atoma 140 on every new stone,regardless of grit.You'll need to bevel the edges of your stones as well.I flatten my stones before each use, gauging the flatness with a pencil grid and a straight edge .View the scale by holding the stone up and checking for light under the strait edge while blinding yourself with the light bulb.Works every time.
Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Tid bit : My Shapton pro 5 k is the deadest stone I have,wish I had never bought it. Riks 5k has been a good stone right from the start. It is better feeling to me and is more like a 4k which leaves my edges with the right amount of teeth.I have other finishing stones which also cost a bit more money then the Rika but the Rika will get her done and be kinder to your wallet.
Only Shapton Pro's I like and still use are my 320, 1k, and 2k. The 2k being a sweetheart of lineup,just love the feel of this stone and the edge it leaves on my stainless.
As mentioned before,I like my Chosera 400,800 and 3k a lot but they are expensive and mine have developed spider web cracks in a short time of use.Some people do not have this issue with their Chos.
The King Hyper 1k is a fantastic stone.I'd have a hard time parting with it.
Also like my JFK synthetic natural stone for finishing as well but it's expensive,a very worthy stone though.
My newly purchased Arashiyama 6k Takenoko is turning out to be another higher grit stone I enjoy but I find I use it sparingly and when I do,it is with light strokes,more like stropping,just to add a little refinement to the teeth if I want to give my arm a shave.You are supposed to laugh there.
I feel you will need a flattening plate right from the start,some say no but my findings are that some stones have a top layer crust on them or are not completely flat to my liking so I use my Atoma 140 on every new stone,regardless of grit.You'll need to bevel the edges of your stones as well.I flatten my stones before each use, gauging the flatness with a pencil grid and a straight edge .View the scale by holding the stone up and checking for light under the strait edge while blinding yourself with the light bulb.Works every time.
Thanks for letting me ramble.

Thanks for all this. I'm almost all set on what I want to order. I'm thinking of going with a Naniwa Pro 800, Shapton Pro 2000 and Suehiro Rika 5000 even if I may not need it that much, I'm curious and it's not too expensive. The only thing that has me hesitating is this quote about the Naniwa pro 800 on Paul's Finest site:
This semi-coarse stone is perfect for grinding a new edge on your knife, and for working out nicks or cracks or other imperfections in old used/abused/damaged knives. Use this grade only when you regular maintenance and finishing isn't doing the trick anymore. It's relatively coarse and so will cut (remove metal) more aggressively and quickly than the higher grits often used in beginner stones/kits.

Since my knives aren't damaged and I mainly want to be able to get a shaper edge on them would the 800 be too coarse or too agressive to start with?

Any thoughts?
Panda?

 

[HRC_64]

Choser 800 is a great stone for 1K range tasks.

That paragraph is basically saying use the 2K
as long as you can for touch ups.

The Cho 800 is not too fast or to coarse.
its finer and has wider usable spectrum
than many 1k stones.

The wide spectrum ability of 800
allows it to be useful for some thinning
if you need it, but thats a feature not
a bug or a flaw.

Just my $0.02

 

[panda]

skip the shapton 2000 completely unnecessary. but rika is fine (this was my very first finishing stone). just remember to soak it for half hour first but do NOT soak the chosera. no it is not too aggressive to start. but the general rule is, if you have the rika always use that first until it no longer gets sharp using just that stone. this is called doing 'touchups'.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

So... I finally decided to jump on Bosco's setup which includes the Jinzo Aoto and 6000 splash n' go from Gesshin. I'm pretty sure it's not ideal to start with these but I had been curious to try Gesshin stones but didn't want to go through the hassle of ordering from the states. I'm pretty happy to have the stone holder, sink bridge and diamond flattening stone as well all in the same bundle. I'm pretty sure I'll need some other stones but that's I good start, I think. For those of you who tried the Jinzo Aoto, would you say it could be a good idea to also have a Naniwa Pro 1000 in this setup or it would be too close to the Jinzo Aoto gritwise? I've been offered the Naniwa for a pretty good price so I've been wondering.

Thanks once again!

 

[JBroida]

Think of the jinzo aoto as a medium grit stone... like a 1k

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I have both of those stones the jinzo aoto use on mono carbons to create mist finish. It is a soaker. You can use it as a stand alone medium stone to practice on.
The Gesshin 6K S&G is very dish resistant it will last a long time. It does not have the feedback that the gesshin soakers or Rika 5K have. It will put a fine edge on your blade.

Use the 4K gesshin soaker at home as a finishing stone on quality stainless & carbons.

Use the 6K S&G at the school on Japanese single bevels it can be soaked even though it is a S&G. Keep it in the same container with Gesshin X-large 400 and Gesshin X-large 1000 perma soaked. Need large stones at the school.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Think of the jinzo aoto as a medium grit stone... like a 1k

I have both of those stones the jinzo aoto use on mono carbons to create mist finish. It is a soaker. You can use it as a stand alone medium stone to practice on.
The Gesshin 6K S&G is very dish resistant it will last a long time. It does not have the feedback that the gesshin soakers or Rika 5K have. It will put a fine edge on your blade.

Use the 4K gesshin soaker at home as a finishing stone on quality stainless & carbons.

Use the 6K S&G at the school on Japanese single bevels it can be soaked even though it is a S&G. Keep it in the same container with Gesshin X-large 400 and Gesshin X-large 1000 perma soaked. Need large stones at the school.

Thanks to you both for the feedback. I guess, I'll be starting my sharpening journey with these two stones and see where it leads me. I'm just a bit nervous about wrecking my knives, though. I guess I'll watch JKI's videos a couple more times before starting

 

[JBroida]

Aside from breaking your knife in half or bending it at a 90 degree angle, almost anything you can mess up can be fixed

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Aside from breaking your knife in half or bending it at a 90 degree angle, almost anything you can mess up can be fixed

So that's what the problem was... Note to self, do not try to bend a knife at a 90 degree angle, rotate the food instead. :
On a more serious note, thanks for that, it's reassuring to know that I can afford to make some mistakes. I'll probably start a new thread with my sharpening questions once I get the stones.

 

[streak]

Colonel Mustard,
I asked most of these same questions before as well.
You said "I am, indeed, starting to think that I should build my set one stone at a time as I've never sharpened a knife before" same situation I was in having only used the V style ceramic sharpeners before.
In the end I bought a simple Norton Fine/Coarse India stone for $20 grabbed a handful of old kitchen knives and started practicing to see if I had what it takes to free hand sharpen a knife.
I am not quite there yet but getting better and better. Once I think I can be consistent enough I will then start looking at buying some of the excellent products suggested in this thread. You could of course put the $20 for the Norton towards the $60 for the Chosera 800 (or whatever the equivalent in Canada is) and the know that your trial stone will be a highly recommend one.