Better option than Dickoron Micro for German knives?

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M1k3

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Eloh

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I do have a Japanese-made knife now and I like it, and it IS useful and good to have a truly sharp knife. But just as ultimate toughness means a dull knife, ultimate sharpness means a fragile knife. Neither one is perfect. Having both and being able to choose is much closer to perfect. :)

You can get any 56hrc knife more than sharp enough for kitchen use though, you just need harder steel to support a significantly thinner geometry behind the edge
 

inferno

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For German knives, there really isn't any point in going much beyond 1000. You can get them shaving sharp on a 1 K stone with a bit of practice, especially if you strop a little afterwards. (All you really need is a bit of cardboard.)

i think they actually benefit from ~2k. and thats sharp enough.
 

Benuser

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You can get any 56hrc knife more than sharp enough for kitchen use though, you just need harder steel to support a significantly thinner geometry behind the edge
As far as stainless ones are concerned.
With carbons, even very soft ones like vintage Sabs can take very thin, highly polished edges. For better retention though, better have them very thin behind the edge and be the edge convexed, ending at a high angle, still highly polished. I maintain old Sabs at 8k.
 

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I don’t have a 2k stone. I’ve tried with a 3k. The knives got a little sharper that way, but also lost their bite on tomatoes.

I can see a 2k working, but I’d say it’s optional.
why is it that when you take a low hrc knive and strop it on a high grit stone it loses its bite ?
 

Michi

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why is it that when you take a low hrc knive and strop it on a high grit stone it loses its bite ?
I'm not really sure why that's happening. I see this with my soft Wüsthofs, but not with my Japanese knives. Not that a Wüsthof sharpened on a 3k stone won't cut—it is still very sharp. But it has a tendency to glide over tomato skin a little instead of biting immediately they way my harder Japanese steels do.

Maybe my sharpening technique isn't good enough. No idea. But, when I stop at 1k for the Wüsthofs, they work better on tomatoes, and they tend to stay that way for quite some time.
 
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r0bz

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I'm not really sure why that's happening. I see this with my soft Wüsthofs, but not with my Japanese knives. Not that a Wüsthof sharpened on a 3k stone won't cut—it is still very sharp. But it has a tendency to glide over tomato skin a little instead of biting immediately they way my harder Japanese steels do.

Maybe my sharpening technique isn't good enough. No idea. But, when I stop at 1k for the Wüsthofs, they work better on tomatoes, and they tend to stay that for quite some time.
i see the same thing i am asking why do you think it is hapenning what is the theory/science behind this phonomena
 

Benuser

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But just as ultimate toughness means a dull knife, ultimate sharpness means a fragile knife.
Not necessarily. You may consider soft carbons like Sabs. Take and hold a very high polish, and are very tough. Require a bit more maintenance.
 

r0bz

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Not necessarily. You may consider soft carbons like Sabs. Take and hold a very high polish, and are very tough. Require a bit more maintenance.
what are sabs and why do they hold a very high polish and 58 hrc stainless steel does not hold if you polish with a high grits stone ?
 

Benuser

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Sabs — Sabatiers — are soft carbons, 54-56Rc. No chromium carbides breaking out of the soft matrix as with soft stainless. A high grit stone will weaken the soft matrix a bit more but leave the carbides untouched, leading to edge instability. No such a thing with even the softest carbons.
 

r0bz

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Sabs — Sabatiers — are soft carbons, 54-56Rc. No chromium carbides breaking out of the soft matrix as with soft stainless. A high grit stone will weaken the soft matrix a bit more but leave the carbides untouched, leading to edge instability. No such a thing with even the softest carbons.
and in simpler terms, a Sabatier with such low HRC can be polished with an 8k stone and cut tomatoes have bite and hold well?
 

Benuser

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and in simpler terms, a Sabatier with such low HRC can be polished with an 8k stone and cut tomatoes have bite and hold well?
I guess Escoffier used tomatoes. But Sabs require a lot of maintenance, by steeling with a polished rod or by other means.
 

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I guess Escoffier used tomatoes. But Sabs require a lot of maintenance, by steeling with a polished rod or by other means.
how come you are so in favor of using honing steels ?
when i asked about the usage of a ribbed Wusthof steel you have told me that the edge it produces fails upon contact with board and it will turn a knife to a butter knife and that you recommend to avoid it

so you do not recommend this honing rod ?
Amazon.com
this is what i have and i use what are the downsides of it ?
btw if you use a honing steel do you apply little force onto it or alot ?
@Benuser said:
With pressure: you mill a new, coarse edge at a probably much higher angle on top of the old one without deburring it, so it's life span will be very short.
With little pressure you create a wire edge, a special case of a burr, on top of the old edge. Very sharp, until it comes into contact with the board and folds over the edge, which is instantly blunt like a butter knife, or breaks leaving a moonscape-like edge behind.
 
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Benuser

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how come you are so in favor of using honing steels ?
when i asked about the usage of a ribbed Wusthof steel you have told me that the edge it produces fails upon contact with board and it will turn a knife to a butter knife and that you recommend to avoid it
I'm certainly not in favour of an average honing rod. Have seen and explained the damage they are likely to cause. But for daily maintenance of a soft stainless, I don't know an alternative to a Dickoron Micro. For other steel types, I never use a rod at home.
 

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I'm certainly not in favour of an average honing rod. Have seen and explained the damage they are likely to cause. But for daily maintenance of a soft stainless, I don't know an alternative to a Dickoron Micro. For other steel types, I never use a rod at home.
you have a dickoron micro and you use it on the soft stainless knives ?
in the mean time since i do not have a dickoron micro what touch-up method will be less worse
for maintaining the 58 rockwell german knive and the 58 rockwell cleaver
1. strop on 800# stone
2. use the wusthof ridged steel
3. use a leather strop
4. something else i did not think about
 

Benuser

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Yes, I do use Dickoron Micro and Polish with soft stainless. Or a dry Naniwa Pro 800.
I would skip the points 1 to 3. You may give a try to cardboard for stropping. It's fairly abrasive. But as you're hampered in recognising burrs I'm not sure it will work.
 

Benuser

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why do you use it dry ?
Has to do with that specific stone. Just less abrasive. Not willing to raise a fresh burr. We're talking about two very light edge leading strokes and two along the edge per side. I do it when the Dickoron becomes less effective and I'm not willing to give it a full sharpening, starting at 320.
 

r0bz

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Has to do with that specific stone. Just less abrasive. Not willing to raise a fresh burr. We're talking about two very light edge leading strokes and two along the edge per side. I do it when the Dickoron becomes less effective and I'm not willing to give it a full sharpening, starting at 320.
interesting i wish i could buy the diockoron someday
 

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why is it the dickoron micro is so recommended and not other steeles from f dick
like the dick multicut or the dickoron polish ?
 

r0bz

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Yes, I do use Dickoron Micro and Polish with soft stainless. Or a dry Naniwa Pro 800.
I would skip the points 1 to 3. You may give a try to cardboard for stropping. It's fairly abrasive. But as you're hampered in recognising burrs I'm not sure it will work.
you use both a dickoron micro
and also a dickoron polish ?

if so which one do you recommend more the dickoron micro or the polish ?
 

r0bz

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you use both a dickoron micro
and also a dickoron polish ?

if so which one do you recommend more the dickoron micro or the polish ?
why recommend the dickoron micro vs the dickoron polish vs the dickoron sapphire cut?
which one do you recommend the best for soft stainless 58 hrc the most and why ?
 

coxhaus

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I have lots of Henckels 4-star knives, I think the new name is Zwilling. I also have several Wusthof knives. I keep 30 in 2 knife blocks and several in a drawer.

I don't use a hone any more with my knives. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener to sharpen my knives. And when I need a touch up I use the Worksharp. It is real fast to sharpen. I sharpen at 15 degrees per side. I started using 17.5 degrees and I feel like 15 is better. I have one big 11.5 inch chef knife that I sharpen at 20 degrees as I use it to cut chickens in half.

I can sharpen one of my dull knives in less than 5 minutes. Touch up is like 1 minute.
 

r0bz

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I have lots of Henckels 4-star knives, I think the new name is Zwilling. I also have several Wusthof knives. I keep 30 in 2 knife blocks and several in a drawer.

I don't use a hone any more with my knives. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener to sharpen my knives. And when I need a touch up I use the Worksharp. It is real fast to sharpen. I sharpen at 15 degrees per side. I started using 17.5 degrees and I feel like 15 is better. I have one big 11.5 inch chef knife that I sharpen at 20 degrees as I use it to cut chickens in half.

I can sharpen one of my dull knives in less than 5 minutes. Touch up is like 1 minute.
that is nice but the edge will become thick overtime and will require thinning
 

coxhaus

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that is nice but the edge will become thick overtime and will require thinning
I here that a lot but none of my knives have worn down that much. And some of my mom's knives that I own now are over 50 years old.
 

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why recommend the dickoron micro vs the dickoron polish vs the dickoron sapphire cut?
which one do you recommend the best for soft stainless 58 hrc the most and why ?
A little late to the conversation, but better late then never.

By the use of sharpening steels you can maintain a micro phase.
This happens due to the steel being abrasive as well as some cold deformation that can even close some microscopic chipes in the cutting edge.

Due to this effects you can even perform progressions of different sharpening steels to maintain your knive.
See this link with the help of google translate for some very basic tests in this regard.
I beliebe the PX88 in this link can be compared to the Dick Saphire.

In terms of abrasiveness the Saphire Cut is the most abrassive and the polish is the least abbrasive. The Micro lies directly in the middle.
The effect of cold deformation is the most dominant with the Polish as it removes the least material.
Due to this the roughness of the blade is the highest with the Saphire Cut while the Polish produces the smoothest edge.

My prefered workflow is to use the the Dick Micro to restore sharpness. After this I use the Dick Polish to achieve a cutting edge with a little less bite. Then I use the polish to restore sharpness until it does not lead to a sharp edge after a few strokes anymore. Then I go back to the Dick Micro, again.
If the Dick Micro does not do it's thing anymore I sometimes go back to an even more abbrasive steel and use the Micro and the Polish to finish the progression. Going directly from the abrasive steel to the Dick Polish destroys the sharpness for some reason, while going through the Dick Micro refines it in my experience. Most of the time, though I simply use a sharpening stone at this point.

Personally I recommend the Dick Micro the most. The steel is abrasive enough to restore sharpness with a few strokes, while maintaining a fine edge.

Second I recommend the Dick Polish as it is a nice addition to the Dick Micro. On its own I would not recommend it, because it very often is not abrasive enough to restore an edge. In combination with another steel it can be quiet handy, though.

Lastly I'd recommend the Dick Saphire Cut because in my sharpening sheme it can be replaced by a fine grit stone.
If you are sharpenining your knifes differently the evaluation of the steels may look completely different, though.
 
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