Bevels! Primary and Secondary

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I just found this old picture from Chad Ward's sharpening tutorial on eGullet which was the impetus for the creation of his book "An Edge in the Kitchen"

Backbevel = Secondary

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Chad Ward eGullet.JPG
 
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It seems as if it divides along the lines of knifemaker and knife sharpener. To a knifemaker like Hoss, the primary bevel is the first one ground on the blade, where for the sharpener like Juranitch, it's the one you grind to sharpen it.

Now where does that leave a sharpener who is on his way to becoming a knifemaker, Dave?

Rick
 
Well, I think I got my answer. I will address this discrepancy and nomenclatural divide in the bevel definitions! Thanks guys!

BTW, while I just can't wrap my head around it NOT being #2, #1 certainly has some big names! Dave, That Lee Valley guy, the Razors Edge guy, Chad Ward. Mighty company.
 
Don't change anything yet...at least give it 48 hours to poll. Then recount...I am in for group 1. But to be honest I never was a numerically linear person so 2 kind of makes sense...nope, GROUP 1.
 
Murray Carter is a group 1 person as well... So am I.
 
kalaeb said:
Don't change anything yet...at least give it 48 hours to poll. Then recount...I am in for group 1. But to be honest I never was a numerically linear person so 2 kind of makes sense...nope, GROUP 1.
Click to expand...

Well, I was trying to determine if there is a clear overall consensus, or if it is a matter of confusion. It seems that for whatever reason, the knife industry has adopted method #1, despite other groups doing it differently. This is exactly what I was talking about, because there is specialized terminology that doesn't make sense to other groups.

If John Juranitch, Leonard Lee, Dave Martell, and Murray Carter all agree on #1, they will all put in their books, tutorials and DVDs that it is that way, and has been in the knife world for decades. As a result countless others will be taught to know it that way too. Not a problem for me! A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, right?
 
The primary bevel is the one that forms the edge and will as first come into contact with the food - and board, perhaps. The secondary or relief bevel is the lower one behind the very edge.
 
I've always thought:

primary = cutting edge
secondary = relief/back bevel

No matter the order in which you put them on. For the people in the #2 camp, would you then consider the cutting edge of a knife with a complex three bevels to be the "third or tertiary bevel"? Sounds weird this way to me.
 
It may sound weird but it makes perfect sense.
 
Cadillac J said:
I've always thought:

primary = cutting edge
secondary = relief/back bevel

No matter the order in which you put them on. For the people in the #2 camp, would you then consider the cutting edge of a knife with a complex three bevels to be the "third or tertiary bevel"? Sounds weird this way to me.
Click to expand...

Because it is both put there third, and because it performs the functions of a bevel third. An assymetrical bevel on the cutting edge will not cause as severe a difference in steering at an assymetrical bevel right off the face. The weight of the knife and force of the motion is being balanced and distributed through the bevels, in their successive order, from the lateral center of balance, down to the edge.

The only sense in which the cutting edge is actually primary is when it is being used to cut something after being sharpened--in the grand scheme of things, it's actually pretty minor.

Also, if you have 2 matching bevels of the same dimensions and angles, then you put a wierd microbevel on one side only, then the microbevel and the other side are primaries, and the one that was ground directly becomes secondary, despite matching the other "primary" in form and function.

But hey, that's just my opinion.
 
I'm in camp #2. The primary bevel goes on first and defines the overall geometry of the blade. The secondary bevel comprises the cutting edge and its shape is influenced by the choice of primary bevel.
 
Camp #2. The primary bevel is the one that is created first.
 
Camp #3. The edge bevel and the back bevel.

Is there anyone confused by this?
 
Edge bevel vs back bevel is far clearer than primary vs secondary. I think half the time we talk about bevels we end up talking in terms of edge bevel vs back bevel.
 
#2

But because many get confused with primary and secondary I use the Japanese term "Itoba" or the English term "microbevel"
 
I've never personally considered microbevels to be real bevels. I guess in my way of thinking, the microbevel should always be completely removed for a true sharpening of the knife, establishing a new, acute, weaker edge. This is the bevel I call a primary bevel. Then you microbevel the primary bevel to add strength and edge retention. You can thin the knife above the primary bevel as well, generating what in my way of thinking is a secondary bevel.
 
I'm #1 but that is because of Dave. Intuitively though, #2 feels more right to me, I don't know why. Back and edge bevels are much clearer though.

k.
 
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