Bonkers proposed changes to UK knife law.

[Noodle Soup]

Could be. Send the red coats over again and we will find out.

 

[StonedEdge]

I can hardly even go to the supermarket in my polonium codpiece anymore without someone calling the police.
Where does it end??

Have they no fashion sense? Some people.... ROFL

 

[malexthekid]

For the record I don't believe in the ban. But I don't believe in it because it won't have an actual effect in reducing knife related deaths.

However what I am commenting on is the whole negative liberty argument because it is frankly hilariously contradictory unless you basically don't believe in governments as law makers. Because law is all about reducing liberties that society as a whole deems inappropriate or too high risk.

Australia and England as a whole deem gun ownership, for the most part, as too high risk and they are banned, and as far as I know the latest polls still suggest that a very large majority here believe that.

The US frankly is prepared to accept mass shootings etc as an "unintended consequence" of gun ownership. And that is your right as a society.

 

[Triggaaar]

All I'm saying is that today it could be kitchen knives we are no longer trusted with, while tomorrow it could be your toothbrush, your GPS device, lawn fertilizer, your cheese grater, you get the idea. If we are to trust governments with formulating and enacting laws to keep us safe from deranged lunatics, hostile drunks, terrorists (whatever that term means today), the boogeyman and whatever else keeps people up at night, there better be factual, empirical evidence supporting any legislation devised to keep people safe because they do, wether you want to admit it or not, always trade some level of personal freedom for a minuscule degree of feeling safer.

I hope they don't stop people having knives delivered, but I can understand that there is an issue with people getting hurt.

If someone wants to kill you badly enough, they will do so wether or not their Kato 240 kitaeji gyuto has been re-classified as a prohibited item or not.

But as I've already said, this isn't about stopping premeditated murder. People are stabbed because people are carrying knives.

Does it seem common on here to you? Don't be so sensitive, especially when no insults toward any individual or any nation have been slung.

I don't know how common it is, I haven't read that many threads. I'm not sure how well it would go down if people were saying they wouldn't want to live in North America.

Here's the thing, assuming he or she is American, this person is actually born with the natural right to keep and bear arms. I realize it sounds weird.

If he or she is American, they're born with the right to follow the law of the land. The same as everyone else.

And we gained that right after a major argument with a certain government that still believes in kings and queens.

I think the UK has changed government a few times since the 18th century. And what does 'still believes in kings and queens' mean? Kings and queens do exist, they're not like fairies or something. Not that they have any power in the UK.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

@malexthekid more like "identify the potentially dangerous dissenters in case overthrowing of governments is on the table - and you even have a reason to shoot them first since they come at you levelling a gun"

...

If you get a tank but no ammo, that is exactly not what I meant by "battle ready".

...

As I said, I am totally not against letting adults have balisongs, sharp (and functional) katanas etc ... at home or in a training space - these things have a purpose, and that is practicing techniques connected to a (bloody but still valid) martial arts context - and tool use could be argued with a balisong, too.

...


What Rob_Sutherland said. Realpolitik sucks, but it can sometimes save lives now and in practice...

...


Who's "targeting kitchen knives and not targeting cars" - the law is about enforcing an age restriction (I'd make it "16 but you're tried as an adult if **** happens*"). It is enforced on cars in practice, isn't it?

*Because you absolutely do not want anyone with a weapon while not being fully accountable for its use. Anything else will be and has been misused in organized crime by sending youth first.

...

@Triggaar most of Europe doesn't even "stop people from owning guns" - they just stop people from legally carrying them or owning them without a reason or oversight.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Actually, you can own cannon ammo. Its just requires a lot of paperwork and expense. But some people here do it.

"If he or she is American, they're born with the right to follow the law of the land. The same as everyone else." If Americans believed that we would still be subjects of the queen.

 

[MontezumaBoy]

My $0.02 - “luckily for me” my new BloodRoot (210mm Petty/Line/Suji … whatever you personally want to call it) has arrived just in nick of time to miss the “ban” (San Diego maybe not) and allow me to add (help end) to this conversation … =;^)

She (sexist much?) is a thing O’beauty! Can’t thank those wonderful BB folks enough and the US Postal Service for actually delivering it without me providing a DNA sample! Touche!



You all have a great day - I'm off to cut some stuff .... shipping B damned! :bliss:

 

[Noodle Soup]

Nice knife.

 

[fatboylim]

For the record I don't believe in the ban. But I don't believe in it because it won't have an actual effect in reducing knife related deaths.

However what I am commenting on is the whole negative liberty argument because it is frankly hilariously contradictory unless you basically don't believe in governments as law makers. Because law is all about reducing liberties that society as a whole deems inappropriate or too high risk.

Australia and England as a whole deem gun ownership, for the most part, as too high risk and they are banned, and as far as I know the latest polls still suggest that a very large majority here believe that.

The US frankly is prepared to accept mass shootings etc as an "unintended consequence" of gun ownership. And that is your right as a society.

As an Australian the no gun policy works as it is a hugely cosmopolitan population where police are within easy reach.

I think the majority of American's population lives in the country where a police officer maybe 3 hours drive away (spread between 2-3 towns). In this case, many people feel safer if they are self armed as police support is not within reach.

That said any system can be better both in American and Australia.

Interestingly, my favorite country for gun control is Norway. It has one of the highest gun ownership per person but the lowest gun crime. This is because almost every gun owner spent a year or so in the military learning to use a rifle and knowing the damage it causes. This education means that there is little fantasising of gun use, but instead a very sober understanding of the responsibilities of having a gun; and the emotional torture if you ever hurt or killed someone. As a side note, they have one of the lowest burglary rates too!

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

@MontezumaBoy how would a change in UK law that regulates UK-to-UK shipping affect you?

 

[MontezumaBoy]

Hi LByA1KCuts,

Sorry for the seqway/distraction in my comments! Just trying to lighten up the conversation a bit ... having said that I could see a scenario where those very same UK-2-UK regulations could impact shipping "extra-UK" so my (near future please!) WillC blade could become an issue as WillC could be labeled a "provider of weaponry" - stranger/unintended consequences have happened IMO!

Now back to cutting things ...

@MontezumaBoy how would a change in UK law that regulates UK-to-UK shipping affect you?

 

[Triggaaar]

@Triggaar most of Europe doesn't even "stop people from owning guns" - they just stop people from legally carrying them or owning them without a reason or oversight.

Categorising Europe as if it's one rule for all is indeed a bit weird.

"If he or she is American, they're born with the right to follow the law of the land. The same as everyone else." If Americans believed that we would still be subjects of the queen.

That's obviously nonsense. You realise that America has been independent for more than a couple of hundred years, and everyone alive then is now dead. What Americans alive now think, regarding the right to follow the law of the land, will not affect American independence.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

@Triggaar "Most". There are exceptions - but in EU, national weapons/hazmat/environmental laws more and more become rebranded versions of each other

Guess americans followed the law of the land, then found they didn't like it, made a new law of the land and followed it?

 

[Triggaaar]

@Triggaar "Most".

Yes I know, my comment that categorising Europe as it it's all the same was not suggesting you had done so.

There are exceptions - but in EU, national weapons/hazmat/environmental laws more and more become rebranded versions of each other

But the EU doesn't cover all of Europe either.

Guess americans followed the law of the land, then found they didn't like it, made a new law of the land and followed it?

Just like every other country in the world. If you're an American and you go on holiday to somewhere that doesn't allow guns, then you obviously don't have the right to bear arms. It's not some right given by god, it is a right while you are within the US, because it is currently the law of the land there. That law may change one day (no time soon I imagine).

 

[Noodle Soup]

Categorising Europe as if it's one rule for all is indeed a bit weird.
That's obviously nonsense. You realise that America has been independent for more than a couple of hundred years, and everyone alive then is now dead. What Americans alive now think, regarding the right to follow the law of the land, will not affect American independence.

Might as well tear up the constitution and get on with following your version of the "law of the land" right? The state I live in has fairly liberal gun laws and I've carried a concealed handgun for most of my adult life. That is a "law of the land" I can support.

 

[Triggaaar]

Might as well tear up the constitution and get on with following your version of the "law of the land" right?

What? Your constitution is part of the law of the land where you live. You do follow the law of the land. Not my version of it, I don't even have a version of it.

The state I live in has fairly liberal gun laws and I've carried a concealed handgun for most of my adult life. That is a "law of the land" I can support.

Yeah I've no problem with that.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Moving back to knives, it has been stated here that if people are allowed to carry scary one-hand opening knives they bought off the internet, they will just naturally use them on each other any time something angers them. I live in an area where practically every serious working man (including chefs) has something clipped to the top of his pocket. I have yet to see the rate of knife assaults being any higher that places with major restrictions. Its the culture and people that breeds lawlessness.

 

[Triggaaar]

Moving back to knives, it has been stated here that if people are allowed to carry scary one-hand opening knives they bought off the internet, they will just naturally use them on each other any time something angers them.

No it hasn't.

I live in an area where practically every serious working man (including chefs) has something clipped to the top of his pocket. I have yet to see the rate of knife assaults being any higher that places with major restrictions.

Which places with major restrictions are you referring to?

Is it possible to order all weapons off the internet in the US, and have them delivered to people under 18?

Its the culture and people that breeds lawlessness.

But having easy access to weapons increases the amount of death a person can cause.

 

[malexthekid]

No it hasn't.
Which places with major restrictions are you referring to?

Is it possible to order all weapons off the internet in the US, and have them delivered to people under 18?

But having easy access to weapons increases the amount of death a person can cause.

If I was you I wouldn't bother with the argument.

Though I must admit the discussions of the constitution vs "law of the land" made me chuckle and reminded me of Jim Jefferies joke regarding "you can't change the 2nd Amendment" "of course you can, its in the name, maybe you need a thesaurus more than a gun" (paraphrasing)

 

[Triggaaar]

If I was you I wouldn't bother with the argument.

Given that this thread is specifically about UK law, might as well have someone from the UK contributing. I haven't looked at the stats behind the desire to bring in the law, but on the face of it I'm quite against it. But the law is just talking about the delivery of knives to your home, you can still have it delivered to local shops where you'd collect it (just like how we send items via UPS etc). You'll still have the right to bear a kitchen knife (without harming any bears).

Though I must admit the discussions of the constitution vs "law of the land" made me chuckle and reminded me of Jim Jefferies joke regarding "you can't change the 2nd Amendment" "of course you can, its in the name, maybe you need a thesaurus more than a gun" (paraphrasing)

:laugh:

 

[tsuriru]

Moving back to knives, it has been stated here that if people are allowed to carry scary one-hand opening knives they bought off the internet, they will just naturally use them on each other any time something angers them. I live in an area where practically every serious working man (including chefs) has something clipped to the top of his pocket. I have yet to see the rate of knife assaults being any higher that places with major restrictions. Its the culture and people that breeds lawlessness.

I agree. I live in a place where there are very strict laws regarding carrying knives (and firearms too - but thats a different ball of wax). Still, there are a lot of stabbings here - mainly by drunken teenagers among themselves (but also in other instances such as domestic disputes, road rage, parking spot arguments, and of course terrorist attacks). I think your observation about culture is somewhat off though. I think this is mainly about education and up-bringing. We all have potential - but it is really up to our "handlers" to do a good job in the first 12 years or so, in teaching us right from wrong.

Also, I think policing (at least where I live) is a crap-shoot. I have, on several occasions in the past, been stopped while driving for a routine papers check i.d, drivers license, insurance etc. Some of these times, the car was searched, and knives where found. Big ass kitchen knives - really sharp ones. A short, polite, explanation and a business card was all it took to make them realize that the situation did not warrant further policing and that no possible crime was in progress and needed to be prevented. I assume the same would have been the case if the driver explained that he was a chef or a kitchen worker on the way to get the knives sharpened - or back from having them sharpened etc.

The law here plainly states that you are allowed to keep knives, axes, or any other sharp edged tools and use them for their intended purpose, you may also carry them but they must be in a box, and in plain sight (forget one handed opening - that will land you in a cell very quickly. So, it's really a matter of the actual situation where a police man encounters X and how X presents himself. Of course, you never know - the most common regular looking people could turn on you in a flash, but profiling and using your head helps a lot. The police here does not harass people needlessly. But if you are a loud, unkempt, impolite kid with alcohol on your breath (or any other profile that the police find to be suspicious) - you may very well be searched, and if they find a knife on you, you may very well be arrested, your knife will be confiscated, and you will be charged accordingly.

 

[Nemo]

I agree. I live in a place where there are very strict laws regarding carrying knives (and firearms too - but thats a different ball of wax). Still, there are a lot of stabbings here - mainly by drunken teenagers among themselves (but also in other instances such as domestic disputes, road rage, parking spot arguments, and of course terrorist attacks). I think your observation about culture is somewhat off though. I think this is mainly about education and up-bringing. We all have potential - but it is really up to our "handlers" to do a good job in the first 12 years or so, in teaching us right from wrong.

Also, I think policing (at least where I live) is a crap-shoot. I have, on several occasions in the past, been stopped while driving for a routine papers check i.d, drivers license, insurance etc. Some of these times, the car was searched, and knives where found. Big ass kitchen knives - really sharp ones. A short, polite, explanation and a business card was all it took to make them realize that the situation did not warrant further policing and that no possible crime was in progress and needed to be prevented. I assume the same would have been the case if the driver explained that he was a chef or a kitchen worker on the way to get the knives sharpened - or back from having them sharpened etc.

The law here plainly states that you are allowed to keep knives, axes, or any other sharp edged tools and use them for their intended purpose, you may also carry them but they must be in a box, and in plain sight (forget one handed opening - that will land you in a cell very quickly. So, it's really a matter of the actual situation where a police man encounters X and how X presents himself. Of course, you never know - the most common regular looking people could turn on you in a flash, but profiling and using your head helps a lot. The police here does not harass people needlessly. But if you are a loud, unkempt, impolite kid with alcohol on your breath (or any other profile that the police find to be suspicious) - you may very well be searched, and if they find a knife on you, you may very well be arrested, your knife will be confiscated, and you will be charged accordingly.

Sounds a lot like the situation here. You need to have an acceptable reason to carry a knife (for example, being a chef and going to work). I don't think that this law gets enforced very often except when people are being antisocial.

 

[WillC]

Relevant to fellow uk Makers, here is what I got back from the home office.....

Dear Mr Catcheside,

Thank you for your letter of 26 July 2017 about the intended Government consultation on proposed changes to the sale of knives in the internet marketplace. Your letter has been passed to the Home Office for a response.

While it is of course the case that knives are used lawfully and legitimately in households and by businesses across the country, we do consider that the measures which the Government announced will further strengthen the law, including in relation to online sales to under-18s. Our intention is to consult on changes so that knives purchased online would no longer be delivered to a private address and would instead require collection at a place where age ID can be checked in person. We do consider that this change, and others that we will consult on, will help us to go further in tackling knife crime.

Alongside the consultation on the legislative measures we are taking forward an immediate package of non-legislative action. This includes:

• a national prevention campaign: our intention is to launch an anti-knife crime media campaign in the Autumn;

• supporting intervention work in hospital accident and emergency departments: we are exploring ways of expanding the capacity of youth violence intervention projects based in hospital emergency departments; and

• an anti-knife community fund to support local communities respond: we believe that community organisations have an important role to play in tackling this issue. A range of organisations are already delivering anti-knife crime work and we will launch a competition as soon as possible inviting bids to deliver measures under a new anti-knife crime community fund.

We understand your concern and I encourage you to be fully involved in the consultation, which we intend to publish in the Autumn. This will be published on the Gov.uk website, will be open to the public so that all interested parties, including retailers, to provide their views on what is proposed. The consultation will provide further detail in respect of our proposal to legislate on online sales to under 18s.


Yours sincerely

 

[TheCaptain]

Well that should fix all your stabbing "issues".

Obviously you're better educated on the nuances than am I. However I cannot recall any of the recent attacks being committed by a minor who purchased a knife over the internet...

Sheer madness!

 

[Matus]

Well, good luck fighting.

 

[WildBoar]

Well, good luck fighting.

...especially when you can't use guns or knives :biggrin:

 

[tsuriru]

Dont say "Knives" say "Manual food processing units".

 

[Matus]

Well, let's just hope that they will not come up with an idea to make a referendum on that - you may end up keeping your kitchen knives in a locked cupboard and require special permission to use them.

The interesting thing is - since a few years there is a very tough law that only allows one to carry (without a proper reason) a sub 3" blade on non locking pocket knife (like a small SAK or similar). So how is the proposed new law going to decrease knife related violence in UK is not easy to understand.

 

[FoRdLaz]

Relevant to fellow uk Makers, here is what I got back from the home office.....

Dear Mr Catcheside,

Thank you for your letter of 26 July 2017 about the intended Government consultation on proposed changes to the sale of knives in the internet marketplace. Your letter has been passed to the Home Office for a response.

While it is of course the case that knives are used lawfully and legitimately in households and by businesses across the country, we do consider that the measures which the Government announced will further strengthen the law, including in relation to online sales to under-18s. Our intention is to consult on changes so that knives purchased online would no longer be delivered to a private address and would instead require collection at a place where age ID can be checked in person. We do consider that this change, and others that we will consult on, will help us to go further in tackling knife crime.

Alongside the consultation on the legislative measures we are taking forward an immediate package of non-legislative action. This includes:

• a national prevention campaign: our intention is to launch an anti-knife crime media campaign in the Autumn;

• supporting intervention work in hospital accident and emergency departments: we are exploring ways of expanding the capacity of youth violence intervention projects based in hospital emergency departments; and

• an anti-knife community fund to support local communities respond: we believe that community organisations have an important role to play in tackling this issue. A range of organisations are already delivering anti-knife crime work and we will launch a competition as soon as possible inviting bids to deliver measures under a new anti-knife crime community fund.

We understand your concern and I encourage you to be fully involved in the consultation, which we intend to publish in the Autumn. This will be published on the Gov.uk website, will be open to the public so that all interested parties, including retailers, to provide their views on what is proposed. The consultation will provide further detail in respect of our proposal to legislate on online sales to under 18s.


Yours sincerely

This is so interesting for me to read about the UK Government trying to "mother" society.

I live in South Africa where violent crimes are quite high, most of them involving some sort of weapon - be it unlicenced (usually) firearms, knives or other means. I am involved in the healthcare industry and spent many years working in A&E Departments and the prehospital environment. What I can tell you is that many stabbings were commited with homemade "shanks", screwdrivers, and even broken bottles (which do a surprising amount of damage). The point I'm trying to make is that so-called "legal" knives are not used as weapons by people who do not have the means to purchase them - and actually the homemade weapons which are then substituted (by say a teenager who could not "legally aquire" a knife to use as a weapon) do far more damage than than the real thing.
In fact a screwdriver to the chest will generally be much more lethal than a stab wound by a knife. And many times the wound is hardly even noticeable.

Anyhow - the UK Government is so naive about things like this. They think their prevention campaign is going to curb penetrating trauma. It will never change - those who want to arm themselves will do so using whatever is available - from a pen to a scissors to a steak knife to a home made shank.

Good luck with fighting this. Hope your government realises how futile these regulations will be!

 

[Matus]

This is so interesting for me to read about the UK Government trying to "mother" society.

I live in South Africa where violent crimes are quite high, most of them involving some sort of weapon - be it unlicenced (usually) firearms, knives or other means. I am involved in the healthcare industry and spent many years working in A&E Departments and the prehospital environment. What I can tell you is that many stabbings were commited with homemade "shanks", screwdrivers, and even broken bottles (which do a surprising amount of damage). The point I'm trying to make is that so-called "legal" knives are not used as weapons by people who do not have the means to purchase them - and actually the homemade weapons which are then substituted (by say a teenager who could not "legally aquire" a knife to use as a weapon) do far more damage than than the real thing.
In fact a screwdriver to the chest will generally be much more lethal than a stab wound by a knife. And many times the wound is hardly even noticeable.

Anyhow - the UK Government is so naive about things like this. They think their prevention campaign is going to curb penetrating trauma. It will never change - those who want to arm themselves will do so using whatever is available - from a pen to a scissors to a steak knife to a home made shank.

Good luck with fighting this. Hope your government realises how futile these regulations will be!

You should send that to the UK officials. It is actually a very interesting piece of information.