Bonkers proposed changes to UK knife law.

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Blaming stabbing crime on the availability of knives is like blaming obesity on the availability of forks.

Knives don't kill people, guns don't kill people, cars don't kill people...people kill people.

Maybe the UK government should more precisely look at WHO are committing these crimes (spoiler: it's not underaged minors)

Also, the only way to defend yourself against someone using a weapon is by being armed yourself. I don't see how government control of material objects in the name of safety can make people safe when dangerous criminal types will ALWAYS be armed, thus leaving the law-abiding citizen unarmed and his/her life rests in the hands of people who may or may not get there in time.

There's a joke in Canada that only the police, the mafia and drug dealers are allowed to carry any sort of weapon 🤣
 
On the 'plus' side, the inability for the UK peeps to easily but kitchen knives means more for us who are not in the UK :pirate1:
 
I must be the only one that thinks this is s reasonable discussion to have.

Should it result in law change, maybe not but you have to have the discussion.

And my understating of the UK environment beyond just the last few terrorist attacks is that they do have a significant youth crime issue in areas.

So maybe those of us not In the country shouldn't be talking about "who is committing the crimes".
 
Blaming stabbing crime on the availability of knives is like blaming obesity on the availability of forks.

Knives don't kill people, guns don't kill people, cars don't kill people...people kill people.

And may i ask what is easier to control, knives or people.

And sorry but the easiest way to defend against someone with a weapon is to ensure they don't have a weapon in the first place.

Not to mention do you want to supply me with any evidence that supports your statement that arming yourself reduces your chance of being exposed to armed violence?
 
Blaming stabbing crime on the availability of knives is like blaming obesity on the availability of forks.

I reckon it's actually more like blaming the obesity epidemic on the ready availablity of higly processed food.

Yes, people still have to eat it for harm to occur, but it's pretty easy to get and many people do eat it without giving thought to the consequences.
 
I live in South Africa where violent crimes are quite high, most of them involving some sort of weapon - be it unlicenced (usually) firearms, knives or other means. I am involved in the healthcare industry and spent many years working in A&E Departments and the prehospital environment. What I can tell you is that many stabbings were commited with homemade "shanks", screwdrivers, and even broken bottles (which do a surprising amount of damage). The point I'm trying to make is that so-called "legal" knives are not used as weapons by people who do not have the means to purchase them - and actually the homemade weapons which are then substituted (by say a teenager who could not "legally aquire" a knife to use as a weapon) do far more damage than than the real thing.
In fact a screwdriver to the chest will generally be much more lethal than a stab wound by a knife. And many times the wound is hardly even noticeable.

It's interesting how patterns of violent trauma vary from society to society.

I work in an operating theatre, often dealing with trauma. In 20 odd years doing this sort of work, I have never had to deal with a violent gunshot wound (meaning one that wasn't either accidental or self-inflicted). Not one. I have dealt with a few knife attacks, and attacks with blunt weapons, several of which were very nearly fatal.

A few years ago, there was a spate of "glassings", where people would smash a beer glass or bottle and use it as a weapon in a pub (bar) altercation. These can produce some pretty awful facial and eye injuries. High risk pubs now use plastic glasses and I haven't seen a glassing injury in several years.

I see lots of blunt facial trauma (inflicted by fists) and a bit of hand trauma (inflicted by faces). Most of the victims and perpetrators are being d**ks and alcohol or drugs are usually involved. Fairly uncommon that anyone dies though.

I don't know if the different patterns of violent trauma are primarily related to the way the society works or the availability of weapons or perhaps a bit of both. In my experience (in Australia), the significant majority of violent trauma is not premeditated but the result of a heated altercation or an over-reaction to an insult, often when people are affected by substances which reduce their impulse control (often in people with fairly poor impulse control to begin with). Minimising the damage that can be done in this situation seems sensible to me (especially if it keeps me in bed in the early hours of the morning). I do suspect that if those idiots who were doing the glassings (and nowadays are just using fists) were carrying firearms, I would have dealt with a lot more gunshot wounds. And been out of bed in the wee hours more often.

Your country may vary, I don't know.

There is often a trade-off to be made between liberty and safety. Where that line should be drawn is very situation dependent and should take into account the magnitude and frequency of the risks involved, the degree of imposition on individual liberty and the way that the particular society works. Taking one extreme, I don't think it's sensible to ban the use of kitchen knives because you can't prepare food propperly without them. And, as has been mentioned, improvised weapons can probably do almost as much damage in determined hands. Taking the other extreme, giving everybody access to weapons of mass destruction would be ridiculously dangerous.

FWIW, I suspect that the proposed UK ban on mail order knives will not achieve much, but I don't live in the UK so my opinion probably doesn't count for much.
 
Apologies that I have not had time to read all of the posts in this important thread.

On thought I had whilst reading the beginning of the discussion relates to eBay (UK's) policy on knife sales. UK buyers cannot buy knives using eBay and this is as a result of some cases where illegal knives were bought by UK buyers using eBay. eBay then implemented the blanket ban on UK knife sales to prevent this happening again.

As inconvenient as it may be to be required to present with ID and collect a knife at the mail sorting office, that would surely be preferable to the eBay solution of stopping all sales.

My thanks to Will C for pursuing this issue through the official channels.



Steven
 
And sorry but the easiest way to defend against someone with a weapon is to ensure they don't have a weapon in the first place.

Not to mention do you want to supply me with any evidence that supports your statement that arming yourself reduces your chance of being exposed to armed violence?

You cannot regulate weapons to the point of insuring no one will have possession over them. Heck you can download and print weapons at home now days - easy as pie. And no, the easiest way to defend yourself from someone with a weapon is not to insure they dont have a weapon in the first place. Arming yourself wont reduce your chances of being exposed to armed violence - but it will sure as **** increase your chances of walking away from the situation instead of being wheeled off, feet first, big toe tagged. You want evidence? Ask anyone who has ever found himself under attack and HAD a weapon with him to defend himself with.
 
Seems to me, lorries, trucks, and vans are more the instrument of choice for those who choose to do violence to others lately. I point this out just to say, a government cannot regulate violence away while maintaining any sort of freedom. Any law should consider how many good, law abiding citizens are negatively affected and weigh that against the potential upside. The "If only 1 life is saved, it is worth it" argument is complete B.S. If that were true, and people REALLY believed that, there would be a push to outlaw such things as swimming pools.
 
Just as a point of reference.... swimming pools are by far the most over regulated "building" in some places around the world.

And while I may agree with you, the general populace (and I am going to take a risk and say even you) don't agree with regulating across the board on a "cost-benefit" or risk basis.

Some things people "fear" more than other things and are therefore over regulated proportionally to their risk.

Aka anything when compared to cars.

So while I agree with you, the reality is that it isn't as simple as you make it sound because in some areas people are prepared to wear a high cost, and in others the "save just one death" wears true.

And no it can't regulate violence away but in most places in the world the population demands it continually reduce violence... it can't control people beyond the moral law of making violence illegal. The next is to control the tools of violence to the point they are allowed to
 
You cannot regulate weapons to the point of insuring no one will have possession over them. Heck you can download and print weapons at home now days - easy as pie. And no, the easiest way to defend yourself from someone with a weapon is not to insure they dont have a weapon in the first place. Arming yourself wont reduce your chances of being exposed to armed violence - but it will sure as **** increase your chances of walking away from the situation instead of being wheeled off, feet first, big toe tagged. You want evidence? Ask anyone who has ever found himself under attack and HAD a weapon with him to defend himself with.
I really don't want to pick this fight but I can't leave that u responded....

Sorry but I totally disagree with you. You may feel like you are more "secure" being able to "defend" yourself in your situation. But I think statistically the results around the world actually show that isn't the case.

I am happy to be proven wrong, but as far as I am aware those with the most "liberal" stance on weapon carrying are the amongst the highest on violent crime. Especially when you start looking at similar socio-economic structures etc.
 
I can say that is not the case here in the US. Some of the worst areas of violent crime are places with more stringent gun laws.
 
I can say that is not the case here in the US. Some of the worst areas of violent crime are places with more stringent gun laws.

As an individual living in the greater Chicago area I can attest to that. In fact, I feel very confident saying the rate of gun ownership is much higher among those who cannot own guns by law, than those who are legally able to possess them.

Now some changes may reduce the spur of the moment idiot moves (the glass bottle thing as a good example). But if someone is determined to do damage, they will find a way.
 
Arming yourself wont reduce your chances of being exposed to armed violence - but it will sure as **** increase your chances of walking away from the situation instead of being wheeled off, feet first, big toe tagged. You want evidence? Ask anyone who has ever found himself under attack and HAD a weapon with him to defend himself with.

Bingo
 
as far as I am aware those with the most "liberal" stance on weapon carrying are the amongst the highest on violent crime

Liberal stance on weapons laws=strict regulations, no one can carry= you're ****** when **** hits the fan

I wish you best of luck surviving an armed mugging with nothing but your stranger danger whistle to protect you.

As for proof, just look at the correlation of violent crime in jurisdictions having the tighter personal carry laws in the US.
 
I'm am going to respectfully say I disagree (until evidence is provided) because from all I have read and seen, while that is stated as anecdotal evidence against stricter gun laws, again happy to be wrong just from what I have read, most of the time that has been stated, at least in the media that has been proven to be a false or misleading statement.

But you also have to look at the socio-economic side of things too.

Hence why it is probably better to do whole of US vs whole of Aus vs whole UK rather than a Detroit Vs Canberra Vs Glasgow.


And also don't want to sound like a D!ck talking about political, or social issues, in other countries but I take a keen interest in what is happening in the UK and US because like it or love it they are good indicators on the direction our government may go.
 
Just as a point of reference.... swimming pools are by far the most over regulated "building" in some places around the world.

And while I may agree with you, the general populace (and I am going to take a risk and say even you) don't agree with regulating across the board on a "cost-benefit" or risk basis.

Some things people "fear" more than other things and are therefore over regulated proportionally to their risk.

Aka anything when compared to cars.

So while I agree with you, the reality is that it isn't as simple as you make it sound because in some areas people are prepared to wear a high cost, and in others the "save just one death" wears true.

And no it can't regulate violence away but in most places in the world the population demands it continually reduce violence... it can't control people beyond the moral law of making violence illegal. The next is to control the tools of violence to the point they are allowed to
You are completely right. I'm not saying this proposed law is good or bad. That is for the people who are affected by it to decide. Your assessment of the problem is spot on. You mentioned "fear". Emotion plays a strong role in these affairs. Facts and statistics rarely have a place in these decisions. I would be asking
1. How many people have been seriously injured or killed by someone in illegal possession of a knife?
2. If this law went into effect, how many of these incidents would have been prevented?
3. If someone possesses a knife illegally, how much difference will this law make? The person is already a criminal.

I am all for any regulation that makes sense. The problem is, laws such as this one tend to inconvenience good people while having little or no effect on the intended target. This seems like more of a vote getting emotional response to a miniscule problem. If the good people of the U.K. are o.k. with this, great. My only point is, take the emotion out of it, think analytically, rely on science and numbers, and common sense.

The pool analogy may not be a good one, but, at least here in the states, no one regulates backyard pools. It is truly sad when a child drowns in one, but I still think people should be allowed to have them.
 
Im worried for the next few generations growing up in this culture of never being accountable for one's self because of a wrongful sense that big Gov't no matter what a) acts in your best interest and b) that words on a page (the law) are an inanlienable, concrete and never failing mechanism that guarantees your safety and well being (it's not, and it won't).

My stance is that I'm the only one who's looking out for myself and that no matter what "the law"...words on a page somewhere, says, there will always be people waiting to prey on you in one form or another.

Now I don't leave the house every morning thinking that, but when it boils down to it, you're on your own in the real world.

Bad people will to bad things, I chose to be prepared and not to give myself that false sense of safety that everyone in the 1st world walks around with thinking nothing can happen to me because Prime Minister so and so says we're all loving each other.
 
Liberal stance on weapons laws=strict regulations, no one can carry= you're ****** when **** hits the fan

I wish you best of luck surviving an armed mugging with nothing but your stranger danger whistle to protect you.

As for proof, just look at the correlation of violent crime in jurisdictions having the tighter personal carry laws in the US.
I used the word liberal in its actual definition. Not political.

I disagree and tend to think the real stats state differently than what you believe.

But look I don't want to get into the whole gun control argument because it ain't gonna go anywhere but people railing on me because I am in Australia, and am old enough to understand and have been through what strict gun control reform actually is and the effects it can have.

But when it comes to the discussion on hand Aus is a lot more like the UK and therefore I can relate a lot more to this rule and where it comes from.

Will it have any real effect, it is debatable... but is it a worthwhile discussion having if there is actually a significant amount of youth knife violence. Of course it is. You wont get any improvements if you can't even discuss all potential options.
 
You are completely right. I'm not saying this proposed law is good or bad. That is for the people who are affected by it to decide. Your assessment of the problem is spot on. You mentioned "fear". Emotion plays a strong role in these affairs. Facts and statistics rarely have a place in these decisions. I would be asking
1. How many people have been seriously injured or killed by someone in illegal possession of a knife?
2. If this law went into effect, how many of these incidents would have been prevented?
3. If someone possesses a knife illegally, how much difference will this law make? The person is already a criminal.

I am all for any regulation that makes sense. The problem is, laws such as this one tend to inconvenience good people while having little or no effect on the intended target. This seems like more of a vote getting emotional response to a miniscule problem. If the good people of the U.K. are o.k. with this, great. My only point is, take the emotion out of it, think analytically, rely on science and numbers, and common sense.

The pool analogy may not be a good one, but, at least here in the states, no one regulates backyard pools. It is truly sad when a child drowns in one, but I still think people should be allowed to have them.
The pool may be apt for the UK, I am only speaking for Aus on that one.

But yes I wish regulation was as simple as you say. Just that most don't accept that pure logic.
 
The pool may be apt for the UK, I am only speaking for Aus on that one.

But yes I wish regulation was as simple as you say. Just that most don't accept that pure logic.
I think we completely agree on this issue.
 
It will do naff all....of course....that much is obvious, if they manage to do anything at all, other than blind gesturing then it all falling down on classifications, if they get round that with a blanket ban on sharp things being delivered to peoples door in the uk then I suppose people will just have to pick there knife up at the local post office. Where theres a Will theres a way;)
 
As an individual living in the greater Chicago area I can attest to that. In fact, I feel very confident saying the rate of gun ownership is much higher among those who cannot own guns by law, than those who are legally able to possess them.

Now some changes may reduce the spur of the moment idiot moves (the glass bottle thing as a good example). But if someone is determined to do damage, they will find a way.
Well, we should not forget that because of very lax laws on gun ownership in US since ... ever, unregistered guns probably outnumber inhabitants in US. It is just so easy to get a gun on black market. Having a stronger regulation, or changing to it, is indeed not going to have immediate effect on gun related violence.

And if that is all wrong, than the only conclusion left is to assume, that there are way more violent people in US than pretty much everywhere else.

Or is there a third option?
 
Well, we should not forget that because of very lax laws on gun ownership in US since ... ever, unregistered guns probably outnumber inhabitants in US. It is just so easy to get a gun on black market. Having a stronger regulation, or changing to it, is indeed not going to have immediate effect on gun related violence.

And if that is all wrong, than the only conclusion left is to assume, that there are way more violent people in US than pretty much everywhere else.

Or is there a third option?

Yes. I've long been a proponent of making ammunition as expensive as f@ck. Yes, I know you can make your own bullets, but tax the he!! out of the raw materials needed. Require gun powder purchasers to be registered and track quantities. It can be, and is, done with other chemicals deemed to be dangerous. Try buying certain kinds of cough syrup for example. Hasn't totally eliminated the home meth labs, but it has made a dent in production.

Yes, American's are in love with their guns and a majority will fight to the death for their right to own them. But they are useless without ammo.

In IL you can get get three .4 S&W for the same price as one cigarette. Hmmm. Seems prices have gone up. Last time I posted that statistic is was about 8 bullets to one cigarette. Guess which one will kill you faster?
 
Maybe the UK government should more precisely look at WHO are committing these crimes (spoiler: it's not underaged minors)

Important to remember that, however stupid and ineffectual the proposition that is the subject of this thread might be, it is designed because the problem is exactly knife crime amongst minors. And in parts of the UK it is a real problem.
My wife worked for some years in an inner-city primary school (4-10yrs) in S London. Confiscation of knives was something they had to do, perhaps not often, but maybe a couple of times a term/semester. 4-10 year old kids. Think about it. We are not talking about "freedom" or any of that political flim-flam, we are talking about little kids who are ready to kill one another.
 
Dan, you are correct as to what triggered this law proposal and that there is a problem to be solved. But kids can not really order a knife on internet - they either grab something at home, or their parents find it ok for them ti have one and carry it whenever they like.
 
Dare I eve go a step further and ask why is seems excessive violence is more prevalent in some countries as opposed to others? I'm in the US and we're pretty bad, I admit. Yes, in general it seems to be less prevalent in suppressive countries (communist, authoritarian regime, etc) but I hope that's not the only answer.

Violence and anti social behavior is very limited in Singapore, but in general I don't think individual freedoms are all that restricted? I'm pretty sure they aren't in Denmark and New Zealand where I don't hear about a lot of violence.

Whish I had an answer.
 
In Denmark freedom is not restricted, but we have seen more gun related crimes lately.

Lars
 
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