Buying my first Gyuto - HELP

[notaguest]

Hey,
I'm currently looking for a gyuto to be my first j-knife.
Altough I already did quite some digging, I'd love to hear some more advice!


LOCATION
Austria

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese Handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240, maybe a bit shorter but not longer

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
650 Euro

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
At Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
slicing/dicing/mincing vegetables, cutting poultry/meats, mincing herbs

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Old Ikea Chefs knife, Old Victorinox pairing knives

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rocking/Push cut, rarely walking (herbs and garlic)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Better aesthetics

Comfort

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

Sharpness (Clean cuts through veggies, no more accordions)

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Yes, Walnut end grain

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes (will train on old knife and move to my gyuto if im comfortable)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives?
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
No (already bought them; 1000 Shapton Pro and Leather strop with Stroppy Stuff)

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Landed on this knife (can't post links yet): Sakai Kikumori Kikuzuki Uzu Gyuto 240mm
It looks astonishing imo, but does the handle get a little bit darker with oiling/beeswax?
I'm open for other recommendations though (preferably carbon steel)!
Thanks!

​

 

[pavhav]

With your budget you have many great choices. I've never used the Uzu, but the company is highly regarded and looks like a great option. You may want to list more of your preferences, (if you've developed them), in order to get more specific advice. Are you looking only for pattern welded/damascus clad blades? Laser, mid-weight, work-horse? Heel height? Profile?

 

[pavhav]

Oh, and yes, if you use mineral oil, beeswax, or tung oil to protect the magnolia/ho handle it does get somewhat darker - especially with the tung oil.

 

[notaguest]

With your budget you have many great choices. I've never used the Uzu, but the company is highly regarded and looks like a great option. You may want to list more of your preferences, (if you've developed them), in order to get more specific advice. Are you looking only for pattern welded/damascus clad blades? Laser, mid-weight, work-horse? Heel height? Profile?

Sadly I haven't developed more nuanced preferences (yet!)
However, I have to say that I quite like the damascus finish, altough I have seen other really good looking ones.
Sorry if this isn't too helpful :/

 

[Benuser]

In other times I would have suggested to try a few inexpensive Japanese yo-gyuotos to find out and develop your preferences, before spending such a generous sum on a knife that perhaps doesn't suit you. Nowadays, most cheap carbons are grounded with CNC machinery which leaves them far too thick behind the edge.
Two chef's knives who don't require heavy thinning before use:
The Suien VC in solid Aogami#2
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/suien-vc-240mm-gyuto
Ask for an initial stone sharpening.
A Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's.
All you will have to do is somewhat refining the factory edge.

 

[Jovidah]

I really struggle to see why you'd invest 650 euros or dive all the way into the deepest end when you have 0 clue about your preferences. For all you know you don't even like carbon steel in practise.
Would probably be better off splitting the budget in 2 or 3 and buying some completely different knives just to figure out your preferences instead.

 

[Jovidah]

For example within that budget you could buy a full carbon Munetoshi, a monosteel Ashi Ginga and still have money to spare, for example for some yo-gyuto to see where your preferences fall.

 

[mengwong]

@Jovidah is right, as usual. My only suggestion is to reserve even more of the budget toward coarse stones, fine stones, flattening stones; goniometer, microscope, BESS tester; and other such frippery.

At the limit,

“What’s for dinner, dear?”

“I ordered pizza.”

“Thought you said you wanted to cook tonight?”

“No time, too busy sharpening.”

 

[plantgainz]

From IKEA to a 600 EURO knife is a big jump and a bad decision, invest that money later on when you know your preferences.
Great options to start are munetoshi, shindo, Mazaki, shigeki Tanaka, kaeru.
I'm a Sanjo addict so everything yoshikane, wakui, nihei is gold for me, the next step price wise.
Never tried the kikumori uzu but did have a similar kikumori I didn't like at all.

 

[plantgainz]

@Jovidah is right, as usual. My only suggestion is to reserve even more of the budget toward coarse stones, fine stones, flattening stones; goniometer, microscope, BESS tester; and other such frippery.

At the limit,

“What’s for dinner, dear?”

“I ordered pizza.”

“Thought you said you wanted to cook tonight?”

“Can’t, too busy sharpening knives.”

I'm still missing microscopes

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Welcome. Lots of folks come into this with a generous starting budget, generally with the idea that it's best to spend good money up front for a good, long-term product. That's okay and in most applications that works out just fine. But, as odd as it might sound, a main kitchen knife is sort of like a pair of shoes in that they're all shoes but we all have different preferences. Those preferences can be quite individual and specific and they do matter over time.

What some of our friends are saying, bluntly but with the kindest of intent, is that you might want to consider trying out some lower priced options to understand what you do and do not like in a knife. There is a lot of contrast out there. In the knife world, a higher price often means more in terms of aesthetics and materials than it does in performance. You can find a lot of good performing knives anywhere from $100 to $300 dollars and you might want to start out by looking there.

That way, if you get a height or length or profile or whatever that you find you don't actually like, you're not out a lot of money or hugely disappointed.

 

[Just a DK]

I'd start with a Yoshikane (sanjo) / Ashi (sakai) / Tetsujin. These you usually can obtain relatively easily and as long as you don't abuse it will generally sell secondhand with a small loss if you don't like it as they are quite well known and well written about.

 

[pavhav]

I'd suggest finding a nearby retailer/shop where you can get a feel for the knives. Balance, weight, handle size, heel height are easier to gauge in person.
Also check out BST:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forums/buy-sell-trade-knife-only.33/

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah HHC had a more elegant way of putting it. It's not to 'gatekeep' you out of the highend. Rather it's that above a certain pricepoint, say for example 200 dollars most knives will be good... but still very much different from eachother. At that point it's not so much about 'better' but more about 'suitable to your specific preferences'. Just getting one that's really expensive is no guarantee for it being the right knife for you.

The hard part about that is that we are fairly good at matching knives to preferences, but no one else can tell you what your preferences are. There's no substitute for simply trying and testing things.

So for example for me it took quite a few knives to find out that my sweetspot is:
-Relatively long (240-250 but 270 is fine too)
-Relatively low blade height (50-51 max, am fine with less but not with more)
-On the thin and light side (leaning to lasery)
-While still having significant taper (I like whispy light thin tips)
-Monosteel (due to the firmer cutting feedback)
-At least semi-stainless, and rather 'forgiving' on maintenance
-And I'm still making up my mind about wa versus yo handles.

But you might prefer blades that are at least 55 mm tall, you might prefer more blade heavy knives, you might prefer more workhorsey grinds, you might prefer sanmai construction, with possibly carbon core and maybe iron flanks. Neither of us is wrong, we just have different tastes. But we'd end up with vastly different opinions about most knives.

 

[mengwong]

we just have different tastes

And if you develop a taste for knives, there’s no rule that says you should have only one main knife…

Just organized a knife drawer this morning, still a little chaotic.
View attachment 305255

Some daily drivers
One rack for western makers
View attachment 215257
One rack for Japanese makers View attachment 215258

I have the Noyer large walnut and been really happy with it. Good grab without being  too magnetized. I had a Messermeister one that wanted to rip them from your hands. CKTG has them for a good price

https://www.noyer.dk/en/products/magnetic-knife-rack/
View attachment 253232


I live in Florida with high humidity and haven't had any rust issues

I decided to throw together a knife rack for my Nordquist collection. I think it came out nice. View attachment 287292

 

[notaguest]

WOW, thanks for all the help guys!

After your replies, I decided that I'll use and build experience with atleast one budget friendly knife.

I really struggle to see why you'd invest 650 euros or dive all the way into the deepest end when you have 0 clue about your preferences. For all you know you don't even like carbon steel in practise.

Thought I might get away with one knife (= Ikea knife) before the real deal, as I did with custom keyboards (PC Kohaku + lubed 62/55g U4T - if anyone is into that) where I had one custom as testing ground before I went all in after about one year.
But all of you probably are right; taking shortcuts isn't the way to go.

@Jovidah is right, as usual. My only suggestion is to reserve even more of the budget toward coarse stones, fine stones, flattening stones; goniometer, microscope, BESS tester; and other such frippery.

After 1k get a 2k, right? On one thread, someone said SP2k would be good.


I've looked at all the recommended knives: the Ashi, the Mazaki as well as the Munetoshi seem the most appealing.

Links:
Munetoshi

Mazaki

Ashi

Gesshin Ginga as well as Ashi Ginga seem to be out of stock (no aftermarket either), so this seems to be a quite good alternative, right?

Apart from those knives, I asked on this BST THREAD what knives are available, hoping for the yoshikane.

I really hope that I didn't overlook anything and you can give me some keynotes/differences about those knives!
Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[tostadas]

Here are some threads you can check out to get started

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/top-5-knives-to-try-at-under-300.42296/

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/favorite-budget-240-gyutos-under-325-off-the-shelf.65961/

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/whats-your-favorite-240mm-gyuto-under-300.52874/

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If you're okay with carbon/iron clad (my preference), Munetoshi is pretty hard to beat.

 

[mengwong]

After 1k get a 2k, right? On one thread, someone said SP2k would be good.

There is a PDF about stones that tries to summarize consensus, if I dare use that term

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rs76...uide.pdf?rlkey=gl1pf80sx9ksdnk82udy3f74v&dl=0

 

[NotAddictedYet]

Since you are Austrian and this is KKF I would suggest:
1. Abandon your budget
2. Drive straight to Benjamin Kamon's shop
3. Spam monkey emojis at him and beg for a knife be made for you
4. If somehow he turns out to be a cold ******* toward his compatriot, drive to Martin Huber's shop
5 Spam male private part emoji at him and beg for a knife be made for you
You should have your one and done (ha) knife now
6 Show us your new knife.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/


Only half joking

 

[aporigine]

WOW, thanks for all the help guys!

After your replies, I decided that I'll use and build experience with atleast one budget friendly knife.

Thought I might get away with one knife (= Ikea knife) before the real deal, as I did with custom keyboards (PC Kohaku + lubed 62/55g U4T - if anyone is into that) where I had one custom as testing ground before I went all in after about one year.
But all of you probably are right; taking shortcuts isn't the way to go.


After 1k get a 2k, right? On one thread, someone said SP2k would be good.


I've looked at all the recommended knives: the Ashi, the Mazaki as well as the Munetoshi seem the most appealing.

Links:
Munetoshi

Mazaki

Ashi

Gesshin Ginga as well as Ashi Ginga seem to be out of stock (no aftermarket either), so this seems to be a quite good alternative, right?

Apart from those knives, I asked on this BST THREAD what knives are available, hoping for the yoshikane.

I really hope that I didn't overlook anything and you can give me some keynotes/differences about those knives!
Thanks a lot in advance!

To the bolded: my gut call is, after a 1k get a 320 or 400. With practice a 1k will put a solid serviceable edge on any knife. If you are faced with something that needs more work, a coarse stone gives you much more versatility.

Some way to keep your stone(s) flat becomes a high priority. I lost an expensive Dia-Flat in my last move. Now I make do with a cheap but good diamond plate from cktg.

If you cannot get a knife (from a stratospheric honyaki to some 3Cr13 Chinese schmonzes) nice&sharp on a 400, fiber stones will do you no good.

With two stones, a flattener, a felt marker and a decent loupe — and lotsa knife clinic for friends&family — you’ll get good at recognizing when you have the thing proper sharp.

Regarding matters of taste, I like Sakai knives and lasers (very thin blades that drop through an onion or potato — but sometimes hold onto them) rather more than other styles that lose a bit of that “ghost through veg” sensation but buy it back in terms of food release. Pros who have to do a lot of work fast they’d to favor workhorses, I am learn I think.

The poster who brought up shoes provides an excellent metaphor imo. Knives are so diverse there really is no choosing a “one and done” from research with handling a number of blades. It took me a dozen knives to get some idea of where my sweet spot is. Paradoxically, it’s not price-dependent. Some of my favorite kitchen blades are relatively inexpensive ($100-150) but oh boy do they sing to me. Conversely, a well-regarded $400 gyuto and a $800 sujihiki that sounded sooo good on paper aren’t really doing it for me. I did luck into a ~$500 gyuto ($700+ new) that is putting an indecent smile on my face every time I murder a root or tüber with it.

So yeah, take the budget tour of different styles of knife (210 or 240 gyuto is a great, heavily-populated category, with some wonderful deals coming&going locally) to find out what you really like.

I’m still early in my journey. What works for me now — six months ago I would have said No. The personal subjective element is a big part of finding the knives that fit your hand like old friends.

 

[aporigine]

Since you are Austrian and this is KKF I would suggest:
1. Abandon your budget
2. Drive straight to Benjamin Kamon's shop
3. Spam monkey emojis at him and beg for a knife be made for you
4. If somehow he turns out to be a cold ******* toward his compatriot, drive to Martin Huber's shop
5 Spam male private part emoji at him and beg for a knife be made for you
You should have your one and done (ha) knife now
6 Show us your new knife.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/


Only half joking

I want a Kamon so bad I can taste it

 

[Hullsöödik]

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tadokoro-x-nakagawa-white-2-gyuto-240mm.73793/

This one looks very attractive

 

[mengwong]

personal subjective element

In England they say “horses for courses”

Around here we say “Hubers for tubers”

 

[aporigine]

In England they say “horses for courses”

Around here we say “Hubers for tubers”

shame there is no handy rhyme for “Shibata for ____”

 

[plantgainz]

In England they say “horses for courses”

Around here we say “Hubers for tubers”

mHubers for uTubers sounds like a funny slogan for the Austrian crazy dude

 

[Jovidah]

shame there is no handy rhyme for “Shibata for ____”

Shibata for patata.

 

[Jovidah]

WOW, thanks for all the help guys!

After your replies, I decided that I'll use and build experience with atleast one budget friendly knife.

Thought I might get away with one knife (= Ikea knife) before the real deal, as I did with custom keyboards (PC Kohaku + lubed 62/55g U4T - if anyone is into that) where I had one custom as testing ground before I went all in after about one year.
But all of you probably are right; taking shortcuts isn't the way to go.


After 1k get a 2k, right? On one thread, someone said SP2k would be good.


I've looked at all the recommended knives: the Ashi, the Mazaki as well as the Munetoshi seem the most appealing.

Links:
Munetoshi

Mazaki

Ashi

Gesshin Ginga as well as Ashi Ginga seem to be out of stock (no aftermarket either), so this seems to be a quite good alternative, right?

Apart from those knives, I asked on this BST THREAD what knives are available, hoping for the yoshikane.

I really hope that I didn't overlook anything and you can give me some keynotes/differences about those knives!
Thanks a lot in advance!

The most affordable way to get an Ashi Ginga in Europe tends to be the Blueway Japan ebay shop. They've been around for a while, just factor in that customs will add some extra costs when it gets in country. However that's also likely to be true for all the American shops, who will also have far higher shipping costs.
The Gesshin version from JKI does have a higher hardness on their stainless version though, so if you absolutely want a Gesshin version then there's not really any alternative... but it'll come out quite a bit more expensive due to the higher shipping + customs costs.

Ashi vs Yoshikane is already 'different styles of knives' territory. Munetoshi and Mazaki are closer together in price, with the former probably being the cheapest way to scratch your 'carbon workhorse' itch. They are also sold by www.knivesandtools.nl but with a cheapo plastic-bolster handle.

 

[Qioda]

I'd start with a Yoshikane (sanjo) / Ashi (sakai) / Tetsujin. These you usually can obtain relatively easily and as long as you don't abuse it will generally sell secondhand with a small loss if you don't like it as they are quite well known and well written about.

I think this is a great recommendation. These are mostly recommended.

The most affordable way to get an Ashi Ginga in Europe tends to be the Blueway Japan ebay shop. They've been around for a while, just factor in that customs will add some extra costs when it gets in country. However that's also likely to be true for all the American shops, who will also have far higher shipping costs.
The Gesshin version from JKI does have a higher hardness on their stainless version though, so if you absolutely want a Gesshin version then there's not really any alternative... but it'll come out quite a bit more expensive due to the higher shipping + customs costs.

Ashi vs Yoshikane is already 'different styles of knives' territory. Munetoshi and Mazaki are closer together in price, with the former probably being the cheapest way to scratch your 'carbon workhorse' itch. They are also sold by www.knivesandtools.nl but with a cheapo plastic-bolster handle.

These are cheaper than Blueway, no? And most importantly they are in stock also with different handle

https://tetogi.com/products/hitohir...m-ho-wood-handle?_pos=13&_sid=5d0b43ee7&_ss=r

https://karasu-knives.com/en-de/products/aaa-165w2-05-fa240?_pos=9&_sid=f237f6e23&_ss=r

Mazaki is available here in EU:
https://thechefscorner.de/collections/neu-im-shop/products/naoki-mazaki-white-2-nashiji-gyuto-240-mm

 

[JPAU]

I'd start with a Yoshikane (sanjo) / Ashi (sakai) / Tetsujin. These you usually can obtain relatively easily and as long as you don't abuse it will generally sell secondhand with a small loss if you don't like it as they are quite well known and well written about.

This is a fantastic suggestion. I’d add a Gorobei / Kikuchiyo x Ren. That Gorobei x Kyuzo that recently sold would also have been a great option.