Can't shave!

[Antiboost]

Can anyone help me? I've got my angles down now having been using whetstone for a month or so. I have a 1000 and 6000 combo stone.
I seem to get to a point where I can cut vegetables well but paper and shaving goes wrong.
I think it might be the stopping strokes but I got a USB microscope and there's no burr as far as I can see.

 

[panda]

why do you need to cut paper and shave with a kitchen knife??

 

[Illyria]

why do you need to cut paper and shave with a kitchen knife??

The paper test is okay, because it might show you a dull spot that you missed?

But yeah, in most places that I've worked (world 50 best places, 2-3 Michelin stars, James beard, etc.) it's rare to see someone go past a 1k stone.

 

[Antiboost]

The paper test is okay, because it might show you a dull spot that you missed?

But yeah, in most places that I've worked (world 50 best places, 2-3 Michelin stars, James beard, etc.) it's rare to see someone go past a 1k stone.

I agree with you on the 1000 being good enough, I watched a video with them getting a razor like edge on a brick.
I guess for the home enthusiast its about polished edge and ultimate shott life edge rather than work sharp durable edge.

 

[Antiboost]

why do you need to cut paper and shave with a kitchen knife??

I think its used as a visual cue to ultimate sharpness on YouTube videos etc.
I cut more vegetables than paper and hair for sure

 

[Steampunk]

why do you need to cut paper and shave with a kitchen knife??

Edge tests like these are canaries in a mineshaft... If an edge cannot shave hair along the whole length, you can feel it hang-up on things like peppers or tomatoes, or increased resistance/risk of sliding off when you go to dice/mince a shallot... If it cannot pass these tests, it's a sign that there's something fundamentally wrong with the edge, because you should be able to shave hair (Not well enough to avoid irritation on the face, but enough to remove arm and leg hair without irritation.) down to maybe 500 grit on dense water stones, or maybe even lower on diamond plates... These are far from being 'over refined' , or 'delicate' edges.

I've seen Japanese sharpeners test their edges against the hair at the back of their head, to feel whether it slides off of it, or grips onto it... The 'Grip' is a good sign of how the edge will bite rather than slide on an ingredient.

If an edge cannot pass such tests, you don't know what using a properly sharpened knife on food feels like, and probably are needing to work harder than is necessary while cooking. Also, one's edges aren't able to last as long, as the defects causing that performance deficit also cause edge weaknesses, and the added pressure/sawing against the board one needs to use when cutting also increases strain on the edge.

Achieving shaving sharpness is just about grinding a properly completed apex, avoiding wobble-induced rounding/slurry dulling, and proper burr removal. That's it... If you aren't able to achieve these results, you need to go back and figure out how, because your edges aren't 'there'.

- Steampunk

 

[gadgetguy9000]

The paper test is okay, because it might show you a dull spot that you missed?

But yeah, in most places that I've worked (world 50 best places, 2-3 Michelin stars, James beard, etc.) it's rare to see someone go past a 1k stone.

The OP probably doesn’t need to shave with the knife. He is using its ability to shave as a benchmark for the edge he is after.

To talk about “need” seems a bit silly, on a site like this. A sharp Forschner or two is all you need to make just about any meal efficiently.

Murray Carter, who knows a fair bit about sharpening, uses a blade’s ability to shave as a test

To the OP: is it possible your edge is convexed? Try to change the angle of the edge vs the light and see if is flat. If it is, you might try a higher grit stone to get the edge you are after.

 

[Antiboost]

Edge tests like these are canaries in a mineshaft... If an edge cannot shave hair along the whole length, you can feel it hang-up on things like peppers or tomatoes, or increased resistance/risk of sliding off when you go to dice/mince a shallot... If it cannot pass these tests, it's a sign that there's something fundamentally wrong with the edge, because you should be able to shave hair (Not well enough to avoid irritation on the face, but enough to remove arm and leg hair without irritation.) down to maybe 500 grit on dense water stones, or maybe even lower on diamond plates... These are far from being 'over refined' , or 'delicate' edges.

I've seen Japanese sharpeners test their edges against the hair at the back of their head, to feel whether it slides off of it, or grips onto it... The 'Grip' is a good sign of how the edge will bite rather than slide on an ingredient.

If an edge cannot pass such tests, you don't know what using a properly sharpened knife on food feels like, and probably are needing to work harder than is necessary while cooking. Also, one's edges aren't able to last as long, as the defects causing that performance deficit also cause edge weaknesses, and the added pressure/sawing against the board one needs to use when cutting also increases strain on the edge.

Achieving shaving sharpness is just about grinding a properly completed apex, avoiding wobble-induced rounding/slurry dulling, and proper burr removal. That's it... If you aren't able to achieve these results, you need to go back and figure out how, because your edges aren't 'there'.

- Steampunk

Great input sir! I wish you offered a mobile sharpening service

 

[Antiboost]

The OP probably doesn’t need to shave with the knife. He is using its ability to shave as a benchmark for the edge he is after.

To talk about “need” seems a bit silly, on a site like this. A sharp Forschner or two is all you need to make just about any meal efficiently.

Murray Carter, who knows a fair bit about sharpening, uses a blade’s ability to shave as a test

To the OP: is it possible your edge is convexed? Try to change the angle of the edge vs the light and see if is flat. If it is, you might try a higher grit stone to get the edge you are after.

True, its so frustrating after really carefully maintaining the angles (supposedly) and ending up with a poor result after 10 minutes or so

 

[panda]

i use cutting actual food as a benchmark

 

[gadgetguy9000]

i use cutting actual food as a benchmark

Testify!

Not particularly helpful information to the OP, however, who wants an edge that is capable of shaving.

 

[Kawa]

To me the pictures show a little white line above the edge, about 0,5-1mm
Could be your intended micro-edge, but my guess it's that this is your unintened 'rounding' the edge. On pictures like this, where you have to find a good light spot for the picture, it (almost) looks the same.
This is achieved by stropping with too much pressure, or you use a too high angle.

Test it like this:
Is your knife performing how you want it to be after your last whetstone?
No -> back to grinding
Yes -> now strop
Is it still as sharp or sharper after stropping?
Yes -> good job
No -> Something bad happens when you strop, since it was sharp after your last whetstone.

For me, stropping makes the knife sharper in a way is feels more refined through newspaper. less of a SSSSSST noice...more silent... but the initial bite remains the same.
If i strop with a too high angle, the bite disappears.

 

[Jville]

You should definitely be able to shave arm hair coming off a 6k - even less. That's pretty basic especially with a good 1k edge. Im not saying this for sure, but maybe you have a bunch of tiny, tiny micro chipping and the edge isn't clean. I've had this with knives before where they were so small along the edge, but the edge still wasn't a clean edge. And paper is a super basic test. If you can't cut paper your knife is dull. I would maybe retry sharpening on the 1k until you get a burr. Are you checking the whole edge for a burr? And also be really careful on the 6k. Maybe just start off doing light stropping being really mindful of your angle. You could also just try stropping it on a the 6k to see if it comes back. Maybe you sort of rounded it off on the 6k. But if it didn't shave or at least cut paper on the 1k then that edge was never right. I've shaved off a shapton 320 before. I 've had some knives that I wasn't shaving on the 1k and still ended up with good edges at the end, but if it's not at least cutting paper something is very wrong. Like some already said a 1k can be a great working edge for the kitchen. It should 100 percent be able to cut paper.

 

[ian]

i use cutting actual food as a benchmark

IMO, the benefit of the paper test is that it's quick and that you can always use the exact same material. If you just test on food, it's hard to tell whether a change in the particular product you're using that time is influencing the test. Plus, a lot of us at home don't have an infinite amount of produce to use for test cuts. With paper, you can just do a couple slices and be done. If I cut up an onion, then I lose a whole onion and have much more to clean up! I mean, I guess I can save the onion for dinner later or something, but then I have to think about how I want to prep the onion while I'm sharpening, and I'd much rather keep the sharpening and the food prep separate. But mostly, the constancy of the material is what's important.

I always slice some paper towel to test for any residual burr. It's always right there on my counter, and if I sense there's any burr left, I'll deal with it and then slice the paper towel again to see if it's still there. Since it's same material, it's easy to tell when the burr disappears. And it's quick, easy, and clean.

 

[kayman67]

Edge tests like these are canaries in a mineshaft... If an edge cannot shave hair along the whole length, you can feel it hang-up on things like peppers or tomatoes, or increased resistance/risk of sliding off when you go to dice/mince a shallot... If it cannot pass these tests, it's a sign that there's something fundamentally wrong with the edge, because you should be able to shave hair (Not well enough to avoid irritation on the face, but enough to remove arm and leg hair without irritation.) down to maybe 500 grit on dense water stones, or maybe even lower on diamond plates... These are far from being 'over refined' , or 'delicate' edges.

I've seen Japanese sharpeners test their edges against the hair at the back of their head, to feel whether it slides off of it, or grips onto it... The 'Grip' is a good sign of how the edge will bite rather than slide on an ingredient.

If an edge cannot pass such tests, you don't know what using a properly sharpened knife on food feels like, and probably are needing to work harder than is necessary while cooking. Also, one's edges aren't able to last as long, as the defects causing that performance deficit also cause edge weaknesses, and the added pressure/sawing against the board one needs to use when cutting also increases strain on the edge.

Achieving shaving sharpness is just about grinding a properly completed apex, avoiding wobble-induced rounding/slurry dulling, and proper burr removal. That's it... If you aren't able to achieve these results, you need to go back and figure out how, because your edges aren't 'there'.

- Steampunk

I'm with him

*adding just that any knife can shave even after very low grits, ~100. Some easier, it's true. I just showed this about 2h ago, 150 grit. It's obvious that's not about shaving itself. It's about pressure and consistency.

 

[MowgFace]

...Plus, a lot of us at home don't have an infinite amount of produce to use for test cuts.

Sacrifice to science!

 

[Steampunk]

Great input sir! I wish you offered a mobile sharpening service

It was not my intention to offer only an explanation of why a shaving sharp edge is needed, and not also how to help diagnose what might be happening with your edges... Unfortunately I was called away before I could complete this. My apologies...

Regarding your edges, I'm guessing the issue is either not fully apexing, or the edge becoming convexed from either slurry dulling or a soft stone deforming from too much pressure being used. The glint off the apex still looks a little wide in your (Very helpful!) USB scope images.

Don't feel bad if you're still relatively new to sharpening, and your edges aren't shaving sharp within 10-minutes. It used to take me maybe 1-2 hours per knife during the early days to get a shaving edge on some of the more frustrating stainless steels using rudimentary stones... It was constantly a process of trying, then testing, then trying again, then testing again, in small increments until I figured out what was wrong with my technique. It took awhile before my times started dropping, and I didn't have to diagnose as much with every blade... This is the reality of sharpening. It takes time...

Here are some possible solutions, besides just practice...

Firstly, I'm guessing that you're using a King 1/6K combo? Even inexpensive stones can get great results, but sometimes the more expensive ones can make your job easier; especially when you're starting out. It actually takes more skill to sharpen with more primitive stones... Better stones cut faster, which gives you less time for creating wobble-induced problems, and medium-firm stones are more forgiving of technique than super soft/muddy or super-hard/glassy ones. Getting something like a Gesshin 1K/6K might make it a little easier to get good results fast.

Secondly, I notice some faceting on your edge, with some lower-grit scratches just before the very apex (Which almost looks micro-beveled? It might just be that it hasn't truly apexed, or is slurry-dulled.)... This means the edge isn't being transcribed and fully refined at one continuous angle... I'd get your bevel cut-in with a coarser or faster stone, generate a good burr on one side, then the other, and with NO PRESSURE (Lift the knife to take pressure off of it. Hold the handle in your fingertips if that's what it takes.) alternate strokes to deburr. Use edge leading on hard stones, and edge trailing on soft at first, until your muscle memory is locked-in enough you can do edge leading on all but the muddiest stones. Try to get the edge fully deburred, and able to shave at 1K. If you can't, do one strop each side with NO PRESSURE on the 6k, raising the angle very slightly (Better yet, use an angle gauge! A block of wood or plastic cut at a specific angle does the trick, and return to it periodically. This will help your body learn to hold the knife at a consistent angle.)... It's not the best solution, but one that might get you fully deburred until you can do it on coarser stones.

Keep experimenting with the above... Take a less expensive knife to you don't mind practicing on, and keep repeating the above until it can shave at 1K. Spend all evening at it if you have to. Then just repeat with 6K, once the 1K edge is where you want it. I'm guessing your problem is either slurry dulling, rounding from stone compression, or failing to fully apex before or after burr removal.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

 

[Antiboost]

It was not my intention to offer only an explanation of why a shaving sharp edge is needed, and not also how to help diagnose what might be happening with your edges... Unfortunately I was called away before I could complete this. My apologies...

Regarding your edges, I'm guessing the issue is either not fully apexing, or the edge becoming convexed from either slurry dulling or a soft stone deforming from too much pressure being used. The glint off the apex still looks a little wide in your (Very helpful!) USB scope images.

Don't feel bad if you're still relatively new to sharpening, and your edges aren't shaving sharp within 10-minutes. It used to take me maybe 1-2 hours per knife during the early days to get a shaving edge on some of the more frustrating stainless steels using rudimentary stones... It was constantly a process of trying, then testing, then trying again, then testing again, in small increments until I figured out what was wrong with my technique. It took awhile before my times started dropping, and I didn't have to diagnose as much with every blade... This is the reality of sharpening. It takes time...

Here are some possible solutions, besides just practice...

Firstly, I'm guessing that you're using a King 1/6K combo? Even inexpensive stones can get great results, but sometimes the more expensive ones can make your job easier; especially when you're starting out. It actually takes more skill to sharpen with more primitive stones... Better stones cut faster, which gives you less time for creating wobble-induced problems, and medium-firm stones are more forgiving of technique than super soft/muddy or super-hard/glassy ones. Getting something like a Gesshin 1K/6K might make it a little easier to get good results fast.

Secondly, I notice some faceting on your edge, with some lower-grit scratches just before the very apex (Which almost looks micro-beveled? It might just be that it hasn't truly apexed, or is slurry-dulled.)... This means the edge isn't being transcribed and fully refined at one continuous angle... I'd get your bevel cut-in with a coarser or faster stone, generate a good burr on one side, then the other, and with NO PRESSURE (Lift the knife to take pressure off of it. Hold the handle in your fingertips if that's what it takes.) alternate strokes to deburr. Use edge leading on hard stones, and edge trailing on soft at first, until your muscle memory is locked-in enough you can do edge leading on all but the muddiest stones. Try to get the edge fully deburred, and able to shave at 1K. If you can't, do one strop each side with NO PRESSURE on the 6k, raising the angle very slightly (Better yet, use an angle gauge! A block of wood or plastic cut at a specific angle does the trick, and return to it periodically. This will help your body learn to hold the knife at a consistent angle.)... It's not the best solution, but one that might get you fully deburred until you can do it on coarser stones.

Keep experimenting with the above... Take a less expensive knife to you don't mind practicing on, and keep repeating the above until it can shave at 1K. Spend all evening at it if you have to. Then just repeat with 6K, once the 1K edge is where you want it. I'm guessing your problem is either slurry dulling, rounding from stone compression, or failing to fully apex before or after burr removal.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

Thanks again for the massively helpful indepth assistance. I've got a Shapton 1000 thats just arrived from Japan. It came in two pieces though 70/30 split. They're letting me keep it so will try it tonight tge other was a generic Amazon Chinese made. I was thinking of getting the Naniwa instead. If after an hour still struggling will upload a video

 

[Jville]

Thanks again for the massively helpful indepth assistance. I've got a Shapton 1000 thats just arrived from Japan. It came in two pieces though 70/30 split. They're letting me keep it so will try it tonight tge other was a generic Amazon Chinese made. I was thinking of getting the Naniwa instead. If after an hour still struggling will upload a video

The shapton pro 1k is very good imo, especially for beginners. Shapton pros was my first set of Stones and the 1k Shapton pro is still my most used beginning stone, love it.

 

[daveb]

While I appreciate the OP's tenacity (and wish him the best), he's not looking for an edge that is capable of shaving, he's looking for one that looks good to the Utube masses.

 

[gadgetguy9000]

I read the OP’s intent as trying to get guidance on what might be going wrong with his sharpening.

 

[kayman67]

Indeed. Still, going with something like Shapton Pro 1000 won't improve sharpening, will just hide the problems for a while. But to each his own, I guess.

 

[Xenif]

I read the OP’s intent as trying to get guidance on what might be going wrong with his sharpening.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/an-available-desirable-knife-to-review.47843/
Nope, YouTube quality for sure!

 

[Tim Rowland]

I'm sure how ever sharp you have in now will still allow you to slice through a pineapple all ninja style for your tens of youtube followers.

 

[kayman67]

Ok, I just died a bit. I need to read more forum.

 

[Steampunk]

While I appreciate the OP's tenacity (and wish him the best), he's not looking for an edge that is capable of shaving, he's looking for one that looks good to the Utube masses.

Seriously?!?! He's not worthy of being helped by his peers on a forum supposedly dedicated to enjoying sharp kitchen knives?!?!

Let's say he wants to be a YouTube influencer... A lot of these people demonstrate their gratitude by crediting their source if they've had a good experience learning. Wouldn't that be a great boost for the KKF, and its viewership/advertising revenue? You're a mod, so this is part of your job: helping to promote the forum, and maintain a positive atmosphere...

Instead, this makes for an atmosphere where newbies aren't welcomed, and all that's left are a few crabby members taking pot-shots at the world until there aren't enough members left to justify the hosting bills.

If someone is 'beneath your dignity' to reply to, you have the discretionary powers to leave it to others to respond and spend your time some other way, but for the love of all that's sharp and shiny, why post what you did?!?!

You're an experienced member of this forum... You've got skills, you've got experiences with lots of knives and stones, you've been spending your life trying to figure out how to use them. You're valuable. I've read your posts, and found them helpful... You could help this person, or if your wisdom thought him unworthy, leave him alone, but you decided to try to denigrate his merit in trying to learn. Is he a YouTuber? Does it matter!?!?

Someone wanted to learn. This is the right forum.

- Steampunk

 

[gadgetguy9000]

Yeah, the attacks seem odd and counterproductive, to say the least.

 

[kayman67]

I imagine the problems started here
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/an-available-desirable-knife-to-review.47843/post-713357

 

[daveb]

Seriously?!?! He's not worthy of being helped by his peers on a forum......
- Steampunk

You've made a long list of assumptions here, each predicated upon the previous one being true. Have you given any thought to the possibility that you might be wrong?

I've gotten over the "Rickyness" of the OPs quest and do appreciate his determination and wish him well.

But.

He's asking what time it is and some are trying to teach him build a watch.

 

[ian]

I dunno. The OP is obsessing about sharpening and looking at his edges with a USB microscope. Seems like he might want to build a watch. Let’s help him.