Carbon steel gyuto laser recommendations

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Uchiacon, Nov 5, 2018.

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  1. Nov 5, 2018 #1

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

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    Hi, greetings from Qatar.
    Need to get a decent knife for myself. Need some recommendations!



    LOCATION
    What country are you in?

    Qatar


    KNIFE TYPE
    What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

    Gyuto

    Are you right or left handed?

    Right

    Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

    Not bothered

    What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

    180-210

    Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

    Want to avoid stainless because I can clean and dry after use. Want better edge too!

    I have used aogami super in the past but white or blue steel will be great too!

    What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

    $250


    KNIFE USE
    Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

    Home

    What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

    Chopping onions. I like to do Italian cooking and I'm tired of chopping onions like a peasant. I want to be able to do the horizontal cuts with ease and shave garlic like in Goodfellas!!

    What knife, if any, are you replacing?

    A great value stainless Rockingham forge I got on holiday for 10 euro. It uses 80cr15 or something.
    I had a hiromoto as but I lost it and they are out of production!

    Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

    Pinch

    What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

    I like to avoid rocking cuts. Push pull no issues.

    What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

    I want a thin, laser, high carbon steel that flies through onions and tomatoes
    sideways

    Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

    No preference

    Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

    Lighter I guess

    Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

    Good ootb edge would be nice. Will buy a 1/6k stone

    Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

    I'm looking for carbon steel, so a moderate time. I'm not really interested in powder steels, due to price and increased difficulty of sharpening, reduced ultimate sharpness.



    KNIFE MAINTENANCE
    Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

    Wood. Not end grain.

    Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

    Yes

    If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

    Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

    Will buy a cheap decent stone.

    SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

    I want something thin and laser. I don't bash my knives around and I look after them. Minimal stiction is good but not a must if the geometry is good.

    I have been looking at konosuke gs+ as hd2 is out of stock everywhere I look.
    Same goes with kurosaki as laser.

    Gesshin Ginga and

    Sakai Yusuke are also on my list to check out.

    Good heat treatment and blade steel quality and geometry trumps other cosmetic factors like handle finish etc.

    I have a chemical engineering background so feel free to get technical!

    Thanks!
     
  2. Nov 5, 2018 #2

    Tonsku38

    Tonsku38

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    Shibata Kotetsu AS. Very thin laser and cuts like a dream. Food release is quite impressive for such a thin knife. Steel feels great so I think heat treatment is very good. Blade is just stunning but mine had badly installed handle. Still love IT.
     
  3. Nov 5, 2018 #3

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

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    So a 210mm shibata as gyu on cktg goes for $250. Would be nice if there was something smaller and cheaper but the reviews seem really top notch. Lot of comparisons to takeda.

    How does it compare to your other knives?

    Is there anything I should look out for before I buy. I hear cktg aren't so honest about qc problems.

    Solid contender.
     
  4. Nov 5, 2018 #4

    McMan

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    Here's something to consider... Gesshin Ikazuchi. Very thin, stainless-clad blue... At $180 it'll leave you room in your budget to get a JKI stone too.

    You're right to have Gesshin Ginga in the mix. A lot to like there... One thing to keep in mind with Ginga is that the 210 is less tall than the 240. 240 is 48mm while the 210 is only 43mm. Upside is its nimble and reduced height may sometimes help a tad with food release (less surface area), though food release on any laser will be nothing to write home about.

    Takeda and Shibata don't have much in common. Both are thin but that's about all they have in common; the profiles and grind are very different.
     
  5. Nov 6, 2018 #5

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

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    I like the look of the gesshin ikazuchi.
    There also seems to be an unspoken aversion to cefknife2go here, so jki seems like a better alternative.

    The ginga is in white steel. I probably don't need that extra shsrpness, or the additional cost.

    Ikazuchi looks like the best bet here. How's it compare to your other knives?
     
  6. Nov 6, 2018 #6

    Jville

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    Shibsta and takeda are quite different in my opinion. The takeda will have magical food release, up there as the best or tied with any I've come across. Shibsta are really, really pure cutters, at least the one I have. They have extreme laser performance that is the best I've encountered. The food release is good for an extreme laser, but like mcman said it's a laser, which food release is the weakness of that style. Also concerning the vendor you are referring to, I have bought dozens of knives and other things. There customer service is fantastic, and I would buy from them with absolutely no concern. Although you are right there are some here on the forum with issues from them, but there are alot of others who would disagree. I would buy from them if they have what you like and make your own decision about them. Takedas have a laserish feel but sometimes people report them not quite as good through dense products. I had a nakiri that I thought I remember being quite good through dense products. I currently have a takeda cleaver that doesn't seem as good though dense products like carrots, it's still newish and I'm still in the intro phase of it.
     
  7. Nov 6, 2018 #7

    daveb

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    Suisin IH, Tadasuna and then Gesshin Ginga are the three "original" lasers and I've had at least one of them in my kit over the years. You've found the GG, a very nice knife even if carbon. The Tad is available from A Frames, https://www.aframestokyo.com/ikkanshi-tadatsuna-wagyuto-210mm-white-steel-bl210.html The Suisin IH is their formulation of Inox - that in my experience gives up nothing to carbon in terms of sharpness, edge holding or sharpenability.

    In my experience Mark's business model has the customer performing QC. Don't know that he even opens the boxes before shipping them out (he couldn't have on my one data point). If the customer finds a problem he will usually make it right (he didn't on mine - referring me instead to the maker). This is potentially problematic for you, if you have a problem you'll have to ship the knife back to the states for resolution. From QC standpoint your best bet is JKI and ask Jon to do initial sharpening.
     
  8. Nov 6, 2018 #8

    McMan

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    The stainless cladding is more drippy than wavvy looking, so looks cool once patina sets in on the core steel.

    I like the knife--very thin but not too flexy (since it's clad); AS does well to hold an edge for a while. I like Ginga and Tadatsuna more.

    But for your requirements and budget ($250), I think Izakuchi+JKI stone is a great value. The Izakuchi grind is intersting... it's got a little bit of a flat spot at the tip so it's good for detail work (plus, the tip is thin, which helps), then most of the grind is radius; there's not really a flat spot to speak of.
     
  9. Nov 6, 2018 #9

    GorillaGrunt

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    Ikazuchi is a great suggestion, never used one but I’ve been checking em out. I like R2 for a laser so for carbon AS sounds pretty good; I do have a Shibata Kashima , one of my favorites, but I don’t know if the grind on the AS is similar.
     
  10. Nov 6, 2018 #10

    bahamaroot

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    I have bought SEVERAL knives from CKTG over the years without any issue whatsoever. Many here like to bash Mark only because of an old partisan feud between he Dave Martell.
     
  11. Nov 7, 2018 at 6:51 AM #11

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

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    Ikazuchi it is.

    I had a king combo stone in the past. 1/6k. The gesshin stones are more than double the price.

    Will a laser gyuto require a gesshin stone? I know there will be very little margin for error with the thinner laser blade. Buy i have my Rockingham forge chef knife to practice on. Hrc 55

    The final obstacle is getting a Qatar shipping address, since the town I'm in doesn't do street names lol
     
  12. Nov 7, 2018 at 3:21 PM #12

    Phip

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    The Takada on the BST is just a bit over your max. It's quite a knife, especially as thinned now.
     
  13. Nov 7, 2018 at 3:57 PM #13

    Chef Doom

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    I agree with the Geshin Ginga. It will fit your needs and you won't need another knife for a long time. I use the 240 on a regular.
     
  14. Nov 7, 2018 at 4:01 PM #14

    lg4mat

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    I like the Ginga White I bought on eBay from bluewayjapan. Good seller. Really light, sharp, laser. I have both 210 and 240.
    Great knives for very reasonable prices. $179 for 210.
     
  15. Nov 7, 2018 at 4:02 PM #15

    Chef Doom

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    There is no special requirement that says you have to get a Geshin stone with a Geshin knife, but it would be a great business tactic

    The main advantage would be 1. You will be getting a better stone 2. It would be shipped at the same time as your knife.

    Or you could test out various random rocks in your area, see what sharpens what, and create a whole new market. Qatar Natural Stones
     
  16. Nov 7, 2018 at 4:55 PM #16

    Uchiacon

    Uchiacon

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    You know I originally was going to take a takeda or moritaka. But the rust issues put me off the moritaka. The price for takeda seemed ok, but I read a lot that they had become victims of their own success and the qc had slipped. That combined with the somewhat spotty qc of cktgooo and mixed reviews and it put me off. I shouldn't have to spend 300 or 350 and then have to get additional finishing to tidy it up.

    But what's this?? Ginga on eBay? So this is the same manufacturer as jki??
    Ok so I checked Google. I found another badly titled post explaining the difference. Jki has better fit and finish ginga and calls them geshin.

    How is it better than the ikazuchi? I'm really just curious... If it's a better quality blade I'll pick one of those up instead and see if blueway has any decent stones to go with it. It's a different steel to a clad blue, but I'm happy either way as long as it isn't stianless. White 2 sounds cool!

    I would guess that the clad ikazuchi will be more rigid at the same thickness? Finding it hard to find direct comparisons on here though.

    Then I can grab a stainless one too for a gift.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018 at 5:06 PM
  17. Nov 7, 2018 at 5:08 PM #17

    Uchiacon

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    On a side note.. I'm watching a video about honyaki forging. These guys are throwing molten steel round like it's water, wearing singlets and cloth aprons!!. I work in the petrochemical industry and our safety would have a seizure if they saw anything like that hahaha

    They're wearing sandals too! He just opens up the furnace and pulls out a lump of white steel with tongs in sandals!! Omg hahahah
    Not even safety glasses on!
     
  18. Nov 7, 2018 at 5:10 PM #18

    daveb

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    Same maker. Not same knife. But for ease of shipping it may make more sense for you. Unfortunately anything the USPS (the world's largest welfare organization) touches incurs excessive shipping expenses, many times making shipping from the states cost prohibitive.

    But they're four times the stone. There is middle ground.
     
  19. Nov 7, 2018 at 5:11 PM #19

    parbaked

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    Blueway/eBay Ginga do not come with a saya, which accounts for some of the price difference...
     
  20. Nov 7, 2018 at 5:19 PM #20

    Uchiacon

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    It looks like the ginga has people's favour here. Blueway carries the king stones only.

    130$ for a gesshin
    made me wince. I know it's probably worth it, but I just won't use it that much. I cook a few nights a week. I can eat Turkish or Indian takeaway here for $10 delivered, and it's healthy!

    I'm going to pick up a ginga in ginsan or silver steel stainless for my colleague too. Can't find many reviews but I'm sure if it's ginga it will be good.

    That's Alnost a second knife... Ah well we will see.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018 at 5:35 PM
  21. Nov 7, 2018 at 5:33 PM #21

    Chef Doom

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    I won't say one is better than the other. The ikazuchi has a core that is blue steel but the outside surface, except the edge, is stainless. The idea is that you get both the benefits of a carbon steel edge and a general nice looking spot free blade.

    Both nice knives. Don't downplay stainless. It is actual a nice touch with the ikazuchi.
     
  22. Nov 7, 2018 at 6:28 PM #22

    daveb

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    I've not handled an Ikazuchi (I don't think I have anyway) but usually associate "laser" with a monosteel knife. I like clad knives but have not used one that I would describe as a laser.
     
  23. Nov 7, 2018 at 6:37 PM #23

    lg4mat

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    True Bluewayjapan seller doesn't offer a saya with purchase. Just well packed knife and it arrived pretty quickly.
     
  24. Nov 7, 2018 at 7:07 PM #24

    McMan

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    Me too... except for Izakuchi (and maybe Takamura). Izakuchi is 0.2-0.3mm thicker than a Ginga along the spine, so pretty thin.
     
  25. Nov 7, 2018 at 7:17 PM #25

    lg4mat

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    Ginga white 210 that I have is 2.1mm @ spine measured at heel. 206mm , 43mm heel.
     
  26. Nov 7, 2018 at 7:28 PM #26

    McMan

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    I just used Jon’s measurements... I don’t have either knife anymore...
     
  27. Nov 8, 2018 at 10:19 AM #27

    Uchiacon

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    Mcman you've used both knives? What were the defining contrasts between them? Apart from the clad and thickness. Finish, geometry, fitting, patina on the ginga, sharpening, edge retention?
     
  28. Nov 8, 2018 at 7:27 PM #28

    McMan

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    The defining contrast for me would be
    (1) that the Izakuchi has more of a radius profile (ie gentle curve) and the ginga has more of a flat spot. I like flat spot, so as I said, I like ginga more. But, with your budget, use, etc. I think the Izakuchi will be awesome and leave you money to get a good stone from Jon too.
    (2) that the Izakuchi is stainless clad and so patina will only be on the edge up to the cladding, which looks cool. Aesthetics matters for some people, less for others.
    Fit and finish will be solid. Jon doesn't mess around with FF. Neither will be hard to sharpen because they're so thin. The Izakuchi will have slightly better edge retention; the Ginga will be slightly easier to sharpen. But this is splitting hairs really--these differences are more like nuances than contrasts.

    At the end of the day, you will be very happy with either. You won't say "I wish I got the other one instead". You will say, "Now I need a 240" :)
     
  29. Nov 9, 2018 at 5:11 PM #29

    Uchiacon

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    Nice. Well it looks like the rest boils down to fine detail, such as blue or white steel, and the look of the knives.

    I'm going to see how the flex is with the monosteel ginga. That's my only concern now.

    A ginga off blueway will probably be my choice as jki doesn't get more until end of Nov.
     

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